Going Major With A Cz

[EricW]

I got this in an email from Milos Horinek - one of our Forum friends in the Czech Republic. I'm totally clueless about CZ's and Tangfolio's, so I need to call in the cavalry. I do realize that Milos' question crosses over into a couple of different areas and we may well need to move this thread to the "Techniques" forum, but I just picked this to start out with since Milos has equipment issue questions.

By the way - WELCOME TO THE FORUMS MILOS!!!

Read on:

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Hello,

my name is Milos Horinek, I'm from Czech Republic. I strongly need an advice and I was not sure to post it into the Forum. I'd be really glad when You could write me something. Thank You

I shoot the IPSC Limited class with Tanfoglio HC Cust. 9*19 luger and I thing I need to go to major. Here in Czech people mainly use the CZ 75 IPSC STANDART cal. 40 s&w it is really popular here and it's similar to the Tanfoglio. I tried it, but I'm not sure about it's huge recoil I felt pretty paine in my left wrist after several shots and I was not able to make good shots under 0.5 sec (10 meters).

They all here use 180 grains bullets with about 950 feets/sec. The powder is "lovex s020" which is not known in your place I guess but it's similar to "VV N330". Some of my friends who shoot this has troubles with their wrists or elbows so far that they don't shoot this year at all. Is this normal?

Isn't the combination of the bullet weight and speed wrong?

Or the spring weight (this gun has really week spring about 8 lb.)?

Is it a bad type of gun? or bad calibre?

What do the shooters in US use to shoot the major?

I don't know anything about this and this sport has only short history here. And I need to shoot major because some stages with no-shoots discriminate the minor class.

Thanks

Milos Horinek

[EricW]

Milo,

My first guess is that an 8 lb spring is too weak for just about any gun running major, but I don't know CZ's at all & could be quite wrong.

Secondly, most of folks shooting Limited here are running .40's. Bullet weights vary, but I think 180-200 grains are the most common. Opinions vary as to what feels best, but the general rule is:

heavy bullets + fast power = less recoil

[Guest bulm5]

going to V V 320 would probabaly help. I did use 330 with 200 grains before and it was OK. When I switched to 320, there was huge difference with felt recoil.

[BrianH]

The recoil spring is VERY wrong. It should be around 14 lb. for .40 Limited, and 10 to 12 for an open gun.

I think they are great guns....love the grip size, the recoil was easy to get used to, in that it is different from a 1911....kinda has it's own recoil pattern, but I liked it.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Defintely increase spring strength. I found that the factory 40 spring was too weak, and I had early unlocking. I found I had smeared firng pin strieks on the primer, and occasional stringing of groups. I worked up until I had the strongest spring that would reliably work weak-handed. (I don't recall the strength, it's been a while.)

Do you chrono? Your "Major" loads could be 'way over if you're going by book data, or relying on feel.

[Even]

I shot a CZ 75 IPSC Standard for about 8 months in 2000. I never had a problem with this gun, except form the rear sight breaking. I shot somewhere around 11.000 rounds thru it. I never had a problem with it hurting my wrist, but a friend of mine had to go back to his Para. For various reasons I ended up with a SV early in 2001. It should not really be very violent with 175 PF ammo...

even

[eric nielsen]

Yes the 40 TZ needs a pretty strong recoil spring. Back in the 175pf days I used one by World Class Pistols/George Huening & that was probably a 16 to 18lb spring. In Europe you have the 170 pwr factor, so I would try at least 14lb like they said. If that causes jams then look at getting stronger magazine springs. TZ is a finicky gun.

For me the CZ/TZ has the most felt recoil & slowest splits in Limited: more than a single-stack, Para, STI-SVI, or Glock (in that order.) If your friends want to lessen the beating on their wrists (mine left one has had surgery + return doctor visits for Celebrex) then I suggest one of you try a Glock, Steyr, or HS-2000 (aka the Springfield XD). The polymer frame really soaks up some recoil, Glock & Steyr point much higher in the hand (which I need) and it won't cost you much to try one - $500 in the USA. If money is no problem try the STI/SVI, the triggers are much nicer.

dvc - eric - A28026

[Milos_Horinek]

Thank you all for your opinions.

I will try the spring weight first and also some faster powder.

[Skywalker]

I too would suggest going to a stronger recoil spring.

I would add using a heavier bullet too.

Here in Italy most of the Standard shooters use Tanfoglio Limited HC, and the vast majority of them use a 200/205 grs bullet @ 850 feet per sec. It is a very soft recoiling round (if you use a recoil spring of at least 14 lbs).

Normally we use VV N320, N340 or the cheaper (in Italy) Hungarian Nitrokemia Rex 3, the one with the green can.

Somebody shoots 180 grs bullets, but the recoil is sharper, and quite tiring on the shooter hands for long practicing sessions.

[Esa1195]

I shoot Standard division with 75 IPSC STD. I use currently factory recoil spring, it's about 14lb.

Recoil buffers are holding on very well, so factory spring seems to be ok. ( round marks in primers, no keyholing )

I didn't like 16lb spring, it was too hard to operate the slide.

[Al Capizzo]

Milos,

Though it has been several years ago my son and I both shot TZ's for several years.

We were using the standard (9mm) frame without the extended dustcover, in .40.

My son being about 13 years old at the time had trouble with the flip (and hammer bite) from heavier 180 and 200 grain bullets, but using 155 grain bullets and N-340 seemed a controllable combination for him at the 175 power factor and did not tear his hand up.

If I remember correctly we were using a 16 pound recoil spring.

Al

[bountyhunter]

I shoot the factory Sellier + Belott 180-gr 40SW in all my .40's and the recoil seems pretty tame to me. I also have carpal-tunnel in both wrists, but do not have a problem with this ammo (as long as I use two hands). I also shoot some 180-gr reloads loaded up about the same (about 950 f/s muzzle velocity) and can't feel any difference.

On the subject of CZ's: doesn't CZ make a longer barreled .40 with a really light SA trigger that's perfect for comp shooting? I recall the model is the CZ-75SA. I'd already own one if I wasn't living in Nazifornia. I recall the testers said the recoil on that one was very mild.

[bountyhunter]

RECOIL SPRINGS: every .40 I have uses an 18 pound recoil spring. I got to believe an 8# spring is going to be way too light (and beat the hell out of your gun).