My Girlfriend wants a gun

[Wasz]

Wow this thread is back. Maybe an update is in order. For some reason she has issue's with the 9mms. Really bad reactionary flinch, as in she anticipates recoil so bad she shoots in the dirt at least for the first couple mags. This is even with guns shes shot before. She's only been shooting for around 10 months so I'm attributing a lot to that. She still loves to shoot and still wants to try all kinds of guns. We're thinking possibly some professional instruction in the spring, maybe just to help put her more at ease. There is a lot of stuff to learn about shooting and shes starting to realize that and wants to get better and better. Her enthusiasm is awesome.

Anyway as far as guns go she spent some time with a friend's slicked up tricked out IDPA kimber and a stock SA loaded. She's in love with 1911s and it seems the .45. She also shot a P01 in 9mm and really liked that. Keeps coming back to that 1911 though. So much for the work up from 9mm idea.

Edited November 28, 2007 by Wasz

[Dave Gundry]

Opps, I totally didn't even realize it was an old thread when I posted - at least I didn't dig it up

My weird thoughts on the flinching - try to find a gun with a really nice 2-3lb trigger that she can shoot. At the stage she's at, learning trigger control and letting the gun 'surprise' you can help tremendously. Hard to do with a heavy trigger though - either need to have a long and mushy DAO trigger or a nice light SA trigger...

But, seeking professional help would definitely be the best choice.

[raz-0]

Firstly thanks for all the input and the concerns about safety. Id like to say that safety is paramount with us and it was the first training she got. The rule is always safety first and she is very safe as am I.

We discussed this some this evening and she broke down and told me she wants to learn to compete along with me. Granted us both being students and young this is a consideration for the future, but it is the goal that apparently we are both striving towards. I am working on getting someone to let her shoot their M&P. She wants a center fire and a .22 apparently. Cost being the constraint she can only really have one currently. If she wants to learn to eventually compete I don't see harm in her getting a 9mm. She'll get one eventually anyway I am sure.

My answer to both of you is to find some static steel matches, snag a .22 semi auto. Ruger 22/45, ruger MK III, browning buckmark, or S&W 22a and five magazines, and go to town. It's good practice to graduate to IPSC/USPSA/IDPA, and it's about as cheap as you can get to compete these days. Steel matches are also pretty popular in PA, so you stand a decent chance of finding one.

[JFD]

You folks must be stupid or something......Every employee at every gun store I've ever been to always insists a woman must shoot a .25 auto or .38 snubbie - Doesn't matter if she wants to plink or kill bears on her days off.

Surely they couldn't be wrong?

[SV_shooter]

You folks must be stupid or something......Every employee at every gun store I've ever been to always insists a woman must shoot a .25 auto or .38 snubbie - Doesn't matter if she wants to plink or kill bears on her days off.

thats hilarious! they tried to sell my ex a Air-weight snubby, and I told them to leave the gun buying up to us, thanks. shoulda seen the look on the guys face! Ran into him at the range, and she was out shooting him. He walked up and asked us where and what we purchased. When he saw the 9mm 1911 and her 2" shoot n see sticker shot to hell all he could say was "damn, you sleep with that thing?"

Edited November 30, 2007 by SV_shooter

[JFD]

Seems like everytime I go to a gun store I have to get involved if a woman is buying a gun and not sure of what she needs. The gun is never purchased from the folks giving bad advice.

[Allgoodhits]

Wow this thread is back. Maybe an update is in order. For some reason she has issue's with the 9mms. Really bad reactionary flinch, as in she anticipates recoil so bad she shoots in the dirt at least for the first couple mags. This is even with guns shes shot before. She's only been shooting for around 10 months so I'm attributing a lot to that. She still loves to shoot and still wants to try all kinds of guns. We're thinking possibly some professional instruction in the spring, maybe just to help put her more at ease. There is a lot of stuff to learn about shooting and shes starting to realize that and wants to get better and better. Her enthusiasm is awesome.

Anyway as far as guns go she spent some time with a friend's slicked up tricked out IDPA kimber and a stock SA loaded. She's in love with 1911s and it seems the .45. She also shot a P01 in 9mm and really liked that. Keeps coming back to that 1911 though. So much for the work up from 9mm idea.

I have never seen a female gun, so my guess is that most shooting errors are cross gender. I don't believe in this _________ is a good gun for a women concept at all.

First, one must understand that the flinch is an autonomic reflex. The brain has knowledge that something very loud, and possibly scary and sometimes painful is about to happen. The brain signals the body to anticipate or prepare for this condition. Some of the things that happen are shutting eyes, leaning forward, and yanking on trigger to get it over with.

Second, if you remove the opportunity for the barin to think the body is under attack the flinch will be reduced and hopefull go away. How do you do this?

The first step would be to have the person hold a firearm and simply dry fire. This will get them comfortable with the grip, and working the trigger with nothing happeneing except a snap or click of hammer fall. The brain will accept there is no threat of load noise or recoil and no flinch will take place since it is not necessary and the autonomic systems will not take over. In other words the brain does not have to override your conscious to protect you.

The next step is to have the person shoot a very mild recoiling firearm, such as a full size firearm like a Ruger MKII or 1911 with .22LR conversion. There will be little recoil, and less report. However the sound alone may cause some minor flinch. If there is a flinch with this mild recoil, low noise weapon then two other things must occur.

One must be to make the firing a total unanticipated surprise. This can be done with a revolver by "ball & dummy" loading the cylinder with random live rounds and blanks, or live rounds and empty cases, or empty cases and blanks. I mention the blanks, because sometimes it is necessary to differentiate what is causing the autonomic reflex. Is it recoil, or is it sound. Random loading can be done with a magazine too, but nothing is better to identfy fliching than a revolver since it can be continually fired or cycled with only the action of the trigger.

Regarding the trigger weight and flinching. Since it is an autonomic "fight or flight" reflex then whether it is a heavy or a light trigger is not the most important thing. Agreed that a light trigger will yield a surprise sooner than the heavier, longer trigger.

Finally, if one does not know when the firearm is going to fire, then they will not flinch. Remember the flinch is an autonomic reflex to prepare for what is going to happen. You can't prepare for it if you don't know when it is going to happen. The time when the hammer falls should be a surprise for the most accurate shot to occur, because we all flinch to some degree, since it is an autonomic reflex. The seasoned shooter, has personal experience that the sound is not going to be too bad, and she may have fired before and can accept that the recoil is not going to be painful, and finally, if the shot is a surprise, then the bullet hopefully has already exited the muzzle before any flinch takes place, no matter how slight or heavy. SURPRISE is the key.

Good luck,

Martin

p.s. If you haven't experienced flinching, then you haven't been exposed to a loud enough or heavy recoil enough gun. To some that may be a .22 or .357 Mag or a 300 Win Mag or .460 WM or whatever. We all have a flinch reflex, at least those of us with functioning brains.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Allgoodhits

[Wasz]

By no means am I advocating that there is a better caliber for women, quite the opposite as the story shows. I understand the flinch and why it is happening. I think that the right idea is as you mentioned though. Just having her around it more. Dry firing handling it. We've done the revolver thing with my gun and she has identified the finch and she sees it, but we're just working on improving it now.

[SA Friday]

I've worked with quite a few women who could not qualify with the M-9, and were not getting what they needed from our firearms instructors. I use three things to get rid of the flinches in both men and women. Dummy rounds loaded into the mag where the shooter doesn't know where they are, dry firing, and having the person shoot a really really big 44 mag revolver. Sometimes it's about confidence in shooting a more powerful round that gets them over the thought that the recoil must be feared.

My wife has shot with me for years, off and on. She prefers the 1911 frame in .45 also. She bought herself a Kimber. She believes that if she ever has to shoot someone, she only wants to have to shoot him once. I keep reminding her to just empty the mag into them.

[Allgoodhits]

By no means am I advocating that there is a better caliber for women, quite the opposite as the story shows. I understand the flinch and why it is happening. I think that the right idea is as you mentioned though. Just having her around it more. Dry firing handling it. We've done the revolver thing with my gun and she has identified the finch and she sees it, but we're just working on improving it now.

Wasz,

Addressing the situation, not you or anyone else personally. I simply replied with quote to your comment because often when threads are hijacked, a response gets disconnected from what it was a comment about or response to.

My apoligize, please.

Martin

[Wasz]

Really no need to apologize there was on offense meant or taken for sure. I really just wanted to say that I agree with you and that we were in the process of addressing the problem. I appreciate yours and everyones input, forums especially this one have been invaluable to me as I continue to learn more about shooting and spread the sport to other people. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me and please continue to do so.

[JimmyZip]

SAFriday I never flinched with a rifle, but for some reason, pistols were a real problem. Dad did the Magnum thing with me, cured it right up. Maybe it's not for everyone but it worked for me. .41, not a .44 bot it still had the same effect. Wasz, Humans generally don't like loud things. It really is unnatural to be around all that noise. If it were so easy, none of us would have ever heard of flinching at all. The encouraging thing is that she continues to like shooting. Many have grown discouraged or just plained disinterested much sooner

[Wasz]

Update. As of right now shes planning to order a STI Spartan next week. We'll see if it pans out or if minds are changed.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Welcome to the forum, your a very lucky man, Get her something that fits her hand and that SHE likes.