Rifle - Rules Question - Rifle Rest

[D.Hayden]

He/she can just say it's a 'similar' support... just being devils advocate here..

[Jim Norman]

OK, I grab my rifle and my "Bug-out Bag" I run the COF.

Notes, the Bag is a prop and all mags MUST come from the bag. Use the bag in any manner you wish, but untill you fire the last shot it MUST be in your possession.

Now, if you are wearing a pack, no problem, but it is just that, a pack, can't use it for anything else.

This points up one of the MAJOR problems with USPSA Multi-gun. We have always been primarily a Pistol sport. Or a Single Gun Sport. Our rules and the thought processes behind them are not in line with what most of the "3-Gun" crowd are used to and there are some areas where the "Range lawyer mentality" just isn't going tomake for smooth sailing.

Jim

[Exodus]

Now, if you are wearing a pack, no problem, but it is just that, a pack, can't use it for anything else.

Jim

Why? Military and police snipers and riflemen are TAUGHT to use their packs as improvised rest. They are not gaming. They are being PRACTICAL.

There are packs made for this specific purpose.

Edited June 29, 2007 by Exodus

[Jim Norman]

No argument that a pack CAN be used, the question is: MAY it be so used.

Do we require the shooter to carry/wear his pack on all stages? Is it OK, to carry it in hand to a stage where you will need it?

Jim

[bigbrowndog]

specifically disallowed, does not cover interpretations, or safety concerns, unsportsmanlike conduct, etc. different people will read a rule and interpret it differently, take for instance how do you calibrate a steel plate, if I hit it and it doesn't fall over, but its moved from its set location, how is it calibrated. there is no ruling on calibrating PLATES, poppers yes. however lots of MDs will interpret, a rule for plates.

Trapr

[mactiger]

specifically disallowed, does not cover interpretations, or safety concerns, unsportsmanlike conduct, etc. different people will read a rule and interpret it differently, take for instance how do you calibrate a steel plate, if I hit it and it doesn't fall over, but its moved from its set location, how is it calibrated. there is no ruling on calibrating PLATES, poppers yes. however lots of MDs will interpret, a rule for plates.

Trapr

Actually we don't calibrate plates. The rule is clear: if it's hit and doesn't fall, it's REF and a reshoot. No calibration allowed.

As for the pack, it's personal equipment, just like your shooting bag, etc. You wanna use it, go ahead. In fact, I've seen shooting bags used many times for this purpose. USPSA rules don't govern personal equipment, like knee pads, hats, etc.

Troy

[Neil Beverley]

specifically disallowed, does not cover interpretations, or safety concerns, unsportsmanlike conduct, etc. different people will read a rule and interpret it differently, take for instance how do you calibrate a steel plate, if I hit it and it doesn't fall over, but its moved from its set location, how is it calibrated. there is no ruling on calibrating PLATES, poppers yes. however lots of MDs will interpret, a rule for plates.

Trapr

Actually we don't calibrate plates. The rule is clear: if it's hit and doesn't fall, it's REF and a reshoot. No calibration allowed.

Troy

Hi Troy

If I may post a slight correction, as it is relevant to multigun discussions, Your statement above is correct for HG and Rifle but not correct for SG, even the USPSA Shotgun rules. The procedure is different for SG and competitors can request for a plate to be tested (rather than calibrated). This partly reflects that metal targets are the primary target for SG and partly replects the ammunition being used (mostly birdshot). A hit by a single pellet from a No.7 birdshot cartridge is still a hit but is no reason to call REF. Appendix C1 is very different for SG.

I should add that for SG any calibration or testing should be carried out from the nearest distance that the competitor could have legally shot the target from and not from where they actually shot the target. Again this recognizes a primary difference in shotgun in that it is an essential element to know your gun, your choke and your ammunition, and then decide how close you have to be to successfully take down the targets. Course designers are obliged to provide achievable challenges using an open choked gun and a specific maximum test cartridge but again, initial stage testing is carried out as close as is legal on the stage. It is up to competitors to choose to shoot further away if they so want.

Please also note that while in HG a hit on a metal no-shoot is counted, and static fixed metal-no-shoots can be employed, for both SG & R metal no-shoots must fall to count and any metal target that can't fall is no longer a no shoot but instead just hard cover because they won't count if hit.

The IPSC 2006 rules made a small number of changes to the procedures, mostly in regards to the specifications of the test cartridges, but also to accept manufacturers cartridge data rather than having to rely on chronoing the ammo.

This post has been edited by Neil Beverley: Today, 08:18 AM

Hell! I just checked a couple pf USPSA interpretations from John Amidon. It muddies the water somewhat. In fact I recall emailing him about these. I won't tell you what he said! I'd hate to be the RO trying to call it with accuracy.

Title:Shotgun Metal Targets

Created:6/27/04

Updated:10/05/04

Effective:7/04/04

Rule number:US 3.1.5

Applies to:Shotgun

Ruling authority:John Amidon

Status:Released

Ruling"Fails to fall or overturn when hit", the interpretation of HIT to be, the center of the pattern striking anywhere on the face of the plate. US4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Scoring metal targets which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways or which fail to fall or overturn when hit, or which a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure. (see Rule 4.6.1).

Title:Shotgun Metal Penalty Targets

Created:6/27/04

Updated:10/05/04

Effective:7/04/04

Rule number:US 3.1.7

Applies to:Shotgun

Ruling authority:John Amidon

Status:Released

Ruling"Any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty" the interpretation of FULL OR PARTIAL DIAMETER, that the center of the pattern strikes anywhere on the penalty target. US4.3.1.7 Penalty metal targets designed to fall when hit,but which accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, shall be treated as range equipment failure. However, any metal penalty target which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial diameter hit shall incur the penalty or penalties in accordance with Rule 9.4.3.

Please note that Rule 9.4.3 states

9.4.3 Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score

and then will be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value

of a maximum scoring hit.

This seems to contradict a suggestion in US 4.3.1.7 that you can employ No-shoots that are designed not to fall. I know the history of when and how this contradiction occurred in the US rules but I didn't have the time to discuss this initially but is perhaps relevant to understand what occurred (see subsequent post). This is the subject that I wrote to John about. Rule 9.5.1 further confirms that metal targets must fall to score. Metal no-shoots are generically under the heading of metal targets - see Section Heading 4.3.

Sorry, for the thread drift but I sort of think it is related.

Edited July 6, 2007 by Neil Beverley

[Neil Beverley]

I would like to return to the situation in regards to a hit on a penalty target in rifle.

• US4.3.1.7 Penalty metal targets designed to fall when hit, but which
  accidentally turn edge-on or sideways, shall be treated as
  range equipment failure. However, any metal penalty target
  which fails to fall or overturn when struck by a full or partial
  diameter hit shall incur the penalty or penalties in
  accordance with Rule 9.4.3.
  

The same as for SG, the US Rifle rule was modified from the IPSC rule (by accident IMO - I'll return to this later).

No interpretation has been written for the Rifle rule and so any hit is theoretically to be penalised, if you read US 4.3.1.7. However, Chapter 4 of the rulebook deals with targets. Chapter 9 tackles scoring policy. Rule 4.3.1.7 points to Rule 9.4.3 which reads:

• 9.4.3 Metal penalty targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score
  and then will be penalized the equivalent of twice the point value
  of a maximum scoring hit.
  

Therefore, US 4.3.1.7 is a clear contradiction of 9.4.3, and , IMO, the scoring rule should take precedence on the subject of scoring. This applies to both SG and Rifle.

How did this occur?

It goes back to a series of on-line USPSA Board Meeting held between 2 December 2003 to 17 January 2004. Arnie Christianson proposed that the IPSC Rules, with limited exeptions, be adopted. The motion failed. There then followed a series of individual motions mostly relating to specific changes with Handgun in mind. Most were adopted, some failed and the motions that passed set the scene for the US rule changes.

During these meetings a proposal was made, and carried unanimously:

• Motion: President moves "USPSA rule modifications will be applied to the handgun, rifle, shotgun and tournament book as applicable"
  

It is this proposal that causes the problem and in my opinion hasn't been implemented properly. The rule modifications were applied to Shotgun & Rifle without fully checking the relevant rule books, and while the rules probably work OK for HG the differences in the SG and R rules weren't, IMO, taken into account.

I emailed Mike Voigt and John Amidon when I realised the implication of the changes to SG 4.3.1.5 and SG 4.3.1.7 in particular and interpretations were written as a result but they still don't deal with the main contradiction.

MODERATORS:

You may feel that this should be split off into a separate topic - I'll leave it up to you.

[Neil Beverley]

Back to the subject of bi-pods I think you guys need to add this to the melting pot. I think somebody, somewhere, was asking whether the bi-pod had to stay with the rifle throughout.

• US8.2.4 Bi-pods must be folded, slings must be in the carry condition (not
  looped around elbows, etc.) at the start of every string or stage
  unless otherwise specified in the stage description.
  

Please note my highlighted text in red.

I should add that I don't believe the intention of the rule is to prevent bi-pods being taken off or fitted between stages, and this is why it is in Chapter 8 instead of Chapter 5. I think it exists to prevent a bi-pod, if fitted, to be in the down position at the start signal. However, like I said above, it muddies the water a bit.

Edited July 6, 2007 by Neil Beverley

[richardschennberg]

Since we have a new rulebook in progress, there is an obvious way to resolve many of these rule interpretations that affect Standard (or Limited) and Tactical Division. Make backpacks as a rest allowed in Tactical but not in Standard/Limited. This not only resolves the issue but increases the difference between the two divisions, which IMO are currently too close.

[jobob]

There is not, nor should there be, any limitation on use of improvised rests in any division (not talking bipods here). If use of a pack as a rest is banned, what about "monopoding" with a magazine? Should the RO step to the side to ensure that a proned shooter's magazine has air between it and the ground? What about a rolled up shirt or jacket? What about laying your forend over a barracade? That's a rest. So, a limited shooter is restricted to iron sights and you would take away his ability to use an improvised rest?

If someone wants to lug a pack around to use for a rest, more power to him. Let's not try to thicken the rule book for no good reason.