Classifier Question

[Northern Xtreme]

When shooting a classifer that requires 7 shots before a mandatory reload IE: Madness 03-08, Does the reload that a revolver shooter would have to do to get the 7th round off satisfy the requirement?

I think the answer is yes, but I wanted to get your expert opinions.

Thanks

[Tom Mainus]

My answer would be no. We have always done shoot 6 reload shoot 1 reload and continue. I hate those classifiers.

Tom

[Carmoney]

Paul, this is a known problem with some of our classifiers--they are potentially ambiguous and can be interpreted/shot/scored/reported differently by different clubs. This screws up the whole system in terms of making accurate comparisons in Revolver division.

Some folks will reasonably interpret the instructions such that you have to shoot each target once, then do a mandatory reload, then shoot each target once again. (If I were the RO, that would probably be my call.) As ridiculous as it seems, the revolver guys would wind up doing three reloads to complete the stage.

Other reasonable people would say that because the word "then" does not actually appear before the words "perform a mandatory reload" in the instructions, the stage can be properly completed with only two reloads. (Okay, I can certainly see the logic in that interpretation, too.)

Bottom line: Some clubs will do it one way, some clubs will do it the other way. Both clubs will send the scores through. Obviously, nobody at USPSA ever considered Revolver division when they approved 03-08 (and several others with similar problems). This is just one example of how the class system works very poorly in the real world.

[pskys2]

Most know the intent. Stick with it. Don't over game it.

I really don't mind those classifiers. They actually "TEST" one of the most vital of our skills, the Reload!

Don't stress it, Jerry rarely shoots classifiers.

[Keith]

Some folks will reasonably interpret the instructions such that you have to shoot each target once, then do a mandatory reload, then shoot each target once again. (If I were the RO, that would probably be my call.) As ridiculous as it seems, the revolver guys would wind up doing three reloads to complete the stage.

That's what I get out of the stage description. I'm pretty sure we're shooting this one on Sunday.

Upon start signal, from Box A only, engage T1-T7

with only one round per target, perform a mandatory reload

and reengage T1-T7 with only one round per target

[Carmoney]

The craziest part of the whole system, for Revolver Division anyway, is that to a very large extent your class is determined by which classifiers you happen to shoot. That's because they have never actually compared us against each other, and they keep changing the "discount from Limited" factor every time they launch a new series of classifiers. Not to mention the fact that within the same series, the discount is the same regardless of whether the stage is 6-round neutral or not.

There are 99-series classifiers that even Jerry probably can't shoot at a GM level, and there are 06-series classifiers that B-level shooters can score at 100% pretty easily. It's a mess.

The best way to approach Revolver Division is to forget the whole class thing and shoot heads-up against everybody else shooting the wheel.

[Tom Mainus]

The best way to approach Revolver Division is to forget the whole class thing and shoot heads-up against everybody else shooting the wheel.

Amen Brother!

[vrmn1]

I have noticed a lot of the classifier stages REALLY blow for revolvers. I have always just shot them the best I could and left it at that.

If I ever have to shoot 03-08 with a revolver I would probably do it with 2 reloads and force the RO to prove to me where that was wrong. That ever important "then" is not there.

We were talking about this last night at a match. We were talking about High Standards 03-18. It says

String 1. On signal, from behind 15-yard fault line, engage

T1-T3 with only two rounds each freestyle, perform

a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T3

with only two rounds each, strong hand only.

String 2. On signal, from behind 10-yard fault line, engage

T1-T3 with only two rounds each freestyle, perform

a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T3

with only two rounds each, weak hand only.

Stacking of shots is not allowed.

It has a lot of only's in it and the last line there

"Stacking of shots is not allowed"

I may make the RO mad but I would make them prove I had to do the extra reload on 03-08

I make it a point to not argue with RO's EVER but that one I would. I have never asked for an overlay even for hits on touching a line.

Is that gaming? Well we are playing a game.

The more I look at it Madness BEGS to be shot with 2 reloads from a revolver in SO many way.

[Mooney]

... This classifier has been brought up before, and I think it was Troy M. that stated that the proper way (in the eyes of NROI) was how it's written, literally.

Engage T1 through T7 with one round each, THEN perform the mandatory reload, THEN T1 through T7 with one round each.

In other words, T1-T6, (implied) reload, T7, reload, T1-6, (implied) reload, T7 (pant, pant, pant....)UL/SC

[vrmn1]

In the words of the great Smokey Yunick. "If it doesn't say it is illegal I can only assume it is legal".

[Carmoney]

I would make them prove I had to do the extra reload on 03-08....Is that gaming? Well we are playing a game. The more I look at it Madness BEGS to be shot with 2 reloads from a revolver in SO many way.

You might be right. Or not. If some people shoot it one way, and other people shoot it a different way, and they all send in their classifiers to be entered into the system at Sedro-Woolley, we have a defective classifier that compromises the integrity of the system. See what I'm saying?

And that would not really matter except many matches continue to award money and prizes based on a classifier system that is so obviously non-functional. The good news is, Revolver shooters don't tend to sandbag (if anything, it's the other way around); we're not in this division because it's easy!

[vrmn1]

"we're not in this division because it's easy! "

Thats a fact, during area 6 after I finished a stage the RO said "thats too damn much like work".

Yes the prize/money awards based on classification is terrible. To my way of thinking you award prizes to the top 3 or 5 or however many in a division and thanks.

I do see what you are saying about the system being flawed. And in more ways than this.

I currently have a 35.something % for limited 10 BUT because I made B in revolver I got moved up to C.

After sleeping on it the more I think I would shoot the 03-08 using the "implied" rules and suck it up because I really don't care about the score as long as I shot it the best I possibly could. I certainly would at a local match I shoot. At a big match I would have to think about it a bit more.

Although this one needs to be looked at and dumped or reworded because "implied" words don't cut it. The statement stacking of shots is not allowed would cover one way I can see of shooting it. OR and a "then" to it. The way it is written leave too much to a persons opinion.

It would be better if this one was dropped.

[Keith]

Some folks will reasonably interpret the instructions such that you have to shoot each target once, then do a mandatory reload, then shoot each target once again. (If I were the RO, that would probably be my call.) As ridiculous as it seems, the revolver guys would wind up doing three reloads to complete the stage.

That's what I get out of the stage description. I'm pretty sure we're shooting this one on Sunday.

Upon start signal, from Box A only, engage T1-T7

with only one round per target, perform a mandatory reload

and reengage T1-T7 with only one round per target

We did shoot this one today and I shot it as described above. I thought I did fairly well at it, all things considered. But the Ohio classifier tells different with a 56%. I only dropped 2 points and did it in 16.79 seconds. I did flub the third reload a little lot that I say probably cost me 2 extra seconds but when I put that into the calculator it only brings it up to 61%.

Oh well. Still had fun.

[Mooney]

I would say that at 56% you did well. This is definitely one of the classifiers that shouldn't be done as a percentage of Limited division ( I STILL can't figure out why that is what we are supposed to shoot a percentage of). The best I have done (and it was a while since I shot this one even kinda-sorta-reasonably well) was 45 and change%. The extra reloads really hurt the overall score.

[Northern Xtreme]

We are shooting this stage in the Summer Blast in a few weeks, and I was just curious how you guys interpreted it. I will ask the match director to clarify how they expect us to shoot it with revolvers and go with that. I am not looking for an unfair advantage, but I also didnt want to be the only one doing a third reload.

[Carmoney]

Let us know what he says. You're right--we should all be shooting it the same way.

[professor]

For whatever reason, two of my local clubs decided to shoot Madness as their monthly classifier already. Since I'm the one and only revo at just about every local match, they didn't care whether I did 1 or 3 reloads. It was my interpretation that the rules applicable to revo shooters require doing 3 reloads. [in other classifiers, with multiple shots per target per "engagement", you can legally reduce reloads by single shot "engagement" of some targets in earlier portions of the COF.] Since I'm looking to get better at all aspects of the sport, and reloading is a big time factor in my shooting a stage, I'm using the 3 reloads as additional practice. As long as it's done consistently for all revo shooters, I've got no problem with the additional reloads. It does mess up my calculations of the number of guys I beat in the other divisions, though.

Re classifier HHFs. The 99 series HHFs were set at 90% of Ltd HHF, for the most part. The 03 series HHFs were set at a lower percentage of the Ltd HHFs, for the most part. That may be too generous for classifiers that have no reloads, and helps with classifiers with the same number of reloads as the other divisions. However The 06 series HHFs were set based on the best revo HFs at the match from which those classifiers were taken. In fact, the 03 series HHFs for L10, Pro, and Rev are the only ones based on actual shooter results.

It doesn't look as though the powers that be will ever modify the HHFs of the earlier series classifiers to reflect reality, but as time goes on, those classifiers will eventually be replaced [ I HOPE ].