Hmmm

[JThompson]

I was shooting a small stage last night and had something happen to me I wanted to run by you. The targets were staggered at 7-9-15 yds. I must have blinked on the second shot at the closest pair, so the shot wasn't called. Had the next target, 9yds in my peripheral vision and the gun just seemed to move there, but my eyes were confirming the last shot. I know the eyes are supposed to lead the gun, but in this case I swung and got a peripheral sight picture and broke the shot just as, or slightly before my primary vision caught up. Since the targets were close it didn't seem to matter a great deal. I scored an A. This was not something that I did consciously... it just happened and it felt like I was seeing everything all at once. Granted they were close targets and some of you guys shoot those without really seeing much, but this was a first for me. I don't know if what happened was a good thing or is something to beware of.

I just changed from a 4moa dot, which looked more like a 2moa, to a 6moa. I love it! It's so much easier to see the dot move and return. It's also helping my transition times, which are pitiful and need work. I found that my splits were a lot less erratic. With the old dot I would throw a .11 followed by a .35 etc. I thought it was just new shooter stuff and not having a good rhythm, but I think I was having a hard time picking up the dot, but wasn't aware of it. My splits are now pretty solid .22-.30 and I was calling them very well. I can pick them up, but this is a comfortable spot where I feel I can shoot As. I'm going to leave it there for now and work on the transitions, which still are in the .4 area, but also much improved with the larger dot.

I was hoping you guys/ladies might be able to shed some light on similar experiences.

Edited June 7, 2007 by JThompson

[wide45]

I know the eyes are supposed to lead the gun, but in this case I swung and got a peripheral sight picture and broke the shot just as, or slightly before my primary vision caught up. Since the targets were close it didn't seem to matter a great deal. I scored an A.

If you called the A when the gun fired, you did great. If you did not call it, an A is still a good thing

Many times I've called a miss from memory, after swinging to the next target. It happens less as I become better at seeing right now.

[JThompson]

I know the eyes are supposed to lead the gun, but in this case I swung and got a peripheral sight picture and broke the shot just as, or slightly before my primary vision caught up. Since the targets were close it didn't seem to matter a great deal. I scored an A.

If you called the A when the gun fired, you did great. If you did not call it, an A is still a good thing

Many times I've called a miss from memory, after swinging to the next target. It happens less as I become better at seeing right now.

Thanks for taking the time Rich...

What do you mean you called a miss from memory...? I'm not sure I follow. Do you8 mean you thought it was a miss after you moved on, but now you are sure of the hit and don't check it? I blinked in this case, so I didn't have a clue. At least I think I blinked... it's possible I didn't call the shot too.

JT

Edited June 8, 2007 by JThompson

[HSMITH]

Jim, if you don't see a Charlie and KNOW it is there you need to be shooting another shot. A missed call on an edge Charlie is a Delta, Delta's hurt badly. A miss hurts entirely too badly to ever let one lay if you are watching the dot. A make-up A is less than a half second away regardless of the shot needed if you are really seeing, and that is worth it every time. ANYTIME I don't see where the shot landed I throw another one down to be sure, an Alpha made up with an Alpha will trump a Delta or a Mike every time. If you blink, breathe wrong, ANYTHING that causes you to not KNOW where that shot went send another as an automatic response. I am not there yet, but it helps a lot. Get your points, the rest can be sorted out later. Without points you can't survive a match.

[wide45]

What do you mean you called a miss from memory...?

I'll be shooting an array, and as I swing onto a target, it strikes me that I did not see the last shot, or what I saw was not a good hit.

You want to call the shot on what you see. What you saw is a memory.

[JThompson]

Jim, if you don't see a Charlie and KNOW it is there you need to be shooting another shot. A missed call on an edge Charlie is a Delta, Delta's hurt badly. A miss hurts entirely too badly to ever let one lay if you are watching the dot. A make-up A is less than a half second away regardless of the shot needed if you are really seeing, and that is worth it every time. ANYTIME I don't see where the shot landed I throw another one down to be sure, an Alpha made up with an Alpha will trump a Delta or a Mike every time. If you blink, breathe wrong, ANYTHING that causes you to not KNOW where that shot went send another as an automatic response. I am not there yet, but it helps a lot. Get your points, the rest can be sorted out later. Without points you can't survive a match.

Thanks Howard... I still have a lot of programming to do

JT

[JThompson]

What do you mean you called a miss from memory...?

I'll be shooting an array, and as I swing onto a target, it strikes me that I did not see the last shot, or what I saw was not a good hit.

You want to call the shot on what you see. What you saw is a memory.

Gotcha,

[Flexmoney]

I was shooting a small stage last night and had something happen to me I wanted to run by you. The targets were staggered at 7-9-15 yds. I must have blinked on the second shot at the closest pair, so the shot wasn't called.

Address this and make sure the blinking isn't any ongoing issue. Double up on your hearing protection, since you are shooting Open. Plugs and good muffs. Keep you mouth closed while shooting (really, it keeps the sound out of that cave in your head).

Had the next target, 9yds in my peripheral vision and the gun just seemed to move there, but my eyes were confirming the last shot. I know the eyes are supposed to lead the gun, but in this case I swung and got a peripheral sight picture and broke the shot just as, or slightly before my primary vision caught up. Since the targets were close it didn't seem to matter a great deal. I scored an A. This was not something that I did consciously... it just happened and it felt like I was seeing everything all at once.

It sounds like were seeing (and being aware) at this point. A very good thing. Whether you should or shouldn't have broke the shot is a different matter.

On easier targets, you can get a lot of input from your senses. You still need to KNOW that the shot will score and that you can call it, but you may not need a super-solid traditional sight picture. I prefer the tradidtional sight picture, and there is usually plenty of time to use it, but in this case...you were distracted from your current shooting because of your past shooting.

Granted they were close targets and some of you guys shoot those without really seeing much, but this was a first for me. I don't know if what happened was a good thing or is something to beware of.

This one is a slippery slope. Be very careful. Get distracted, or turn down the vision, and you are hosed (and hosing/hoping ).

I just changed from a 4moa dot, which looked more like a 2moa, to a 6moa. I love it! It's so much easier to see the dot move and return. It's also helping my transition times, which are pitiful and need work. I found that my splits were a lot less erratic. With the old dot I would throw a .11 followed by a .35 etc. I thought it was just new shooter stuff and not having a good rhythm, but I think I was having a hard time picking up the dot, but wasn't aware of it. My splits are now pretty solid .22-.30 and I was calling them very well. I can pick them up, but this is a comfortable spot where I feel I can shoot As. I'm going to leave it there for now and work on the transitions, which still are in the .4 area, but also much improved with the larger dot.

I was hoping you guys/ladies might be able to shed some light on similar experiences.

You probably ought to find the drill that Brian was talking about last summer... 3 targets...

[JThompson]

[/i]ame='Flexmoney' date='Jun 8 2007, 10:14 AM' post='564302']

I was shooting a small stage last night and had something happen to me I wanted to run by you. The targets were staggered at 7-9-15 yds. I must have blinked on the second shot at the closest pair, so the shot wasn't called.

Address this and make sure the blinking isn't any ongoing issue. Double up on your hearing protection, since you are shooting Open. Plugs and good muffs. Keep you mouth closed while shooting (really, it keeps the sound out of that cave in your head).

It isn't. I have worked on it and can keep them open without blinking, but every now it happens

Had the next target, 9yds in my peripheral vision and the gun just seemed to move there, but my eyes were confirming the last shot. I know the eyes are supposed to lead the gun, but in this case I swung and got a peripheral sight picture and broke the shot just as, or slightly before my primary vision caught up. Since the targets were close it didn't seem to matter a great deal. I scored an A. This was not something that I did consciously... it just happened and it felt like I was seeing everything all at once.

It sounds like were seeing (and being aware) at this point. A very good thing. Whether you should or shouldn't have broke the shot is a different matter.

That's true... it was a near thing either way. I think I should have fired another before moving on.

On easier targets, you can get a lot of input from your senses. You still need to KNOW that the shot will score and that you can call it, but you may not need a super-solid traditional sight picture. I prefer the tradidtional sight picture, and there is usually plenty of time to use it, but in this case...you were distracted from your current shooting because of your past shooting.

Right. That's why I think I should have fired a "safety shot" into the A zone. It's not worth the time to wonder or try and check it after the fact. If I had fired a second I could have moved on without hesitation and had my primary vision lead the gun

Granted they were close targets and some of you guys shoot those without really seeing much, but this was a first for me. I don't know if what happened was a good thing or is something to beware of.

This one is a slippery slope. Be very careful. Get distracted, or turn down the vision, and you are hosed (and hosing/hoping ).

I did just that on a hoser stage... I was pointing instead and calling the holes as they appeared... it cost me when I missed a couple of head-only shots. The sight needs a bit of tweaking yet too. I ruffed it in right before the match, but didn't have time to do it right. It's a bit high close in and I had the onld site programmed and didn't account for it. I made a mental note, but maybe I needed to "reboot" for the change to take effect.

I just changed from a 4moa dot, which looked more like a 2moa, to a 6moa. I love it! It's so much easier to see the dot move and return. It's also helping my transition times, which are pitiful and need work. I found that my splits were a lot less erratic. With the old dot I would throw a .11 followed by a .35 etc. I thought it was just new shooter stuff and not having a good rhythm, but I think I was having a hard time picking up the dot, but wasn't aware of it. My splits are now pretty solid .22-.30 and I was calling them very well. I can pick them up, but this is a comfortable spot where I feel I can shoot As. I'm going to leave it there for now and work on the transitions, which still are in the .4 area, but also much improved with the larger dot.

I was hoping you guys/ladies might be able to shed some light on similar experiences.

You probably ought to find the drill that Brian was talking about last summer... 3 targets...

I dunno about Brian's drill, but some of the guys gave me some good drills to work and I am.

Edited June 8, 2007 by JThompson

[XRe]

Without trying to sound too oversimplified, Jim, all this talk of "safety shots", and blinking, etc, is just a distraction from what's important - either you did or did not call the shot, and you did or did not make up the shot you either called as a miss, or did not call (and hence have no clue where it is). Doesn't matter why you didn't call it

This part of the learning curve - realizing that you can see things you didn't before, but not yet being able to react to them intuitively - is a neat one. Its a big step - being open enough to see the things you've described is a cool feeling, and the first move towards a more aware shooting mentality.

In my experience, what you're going through here is more a case of being visually aware, but unfocused - near as I can tell, this is a normal part of our growth, and results from focusing on things other than calling shots. When I get into it, its usually because I'm either not focused or engaged, or because I've been working on some skills, and I'm focused on executing those skills instead of on paying attention to the sights. The way I move forward from this is to emphasize visual patience and focus on calling the shots in my stage prep routine, as I'm visualizing the stage. This has a way of pulling my focus back to calling shots, but still integrating the new level of awareness that I've found.

My advice, for what its worth, is to try not to get hung up on whether something is good or bad, or on excuses for why things didn't work like you think they should have. Instead, recognize what did happen, identify the parts you want to change, visualize your performance on the stage again substituting in the corrections, and then let it go. If there's a skill that needs refining, or (through drill and experimentation after the fact) you determine equipment needs changing - do so, and own it. There's no good or bad - just what is and isn't. Good or Bad is a judgment, and will cause you to miss what is important - and that's fact: what is or is not.

Hey, BTW - what happened to the fast splits?? One last thought - its not the dot size that "throws" splits, or is erratic... However, the different dot size may allow you to acquire and see the dot more easily.... You might also try an 8 MOA, FWIW...

[JThompson]

Without trying to sound too oversimplified, Jim, all this talk of "safety shots", and blinking, etc, is just a distraction from what's important - either you did or did not call the shot, and you did or did not make up the shot you either called as a miss, or did not call (and hence have no clue where it is). Doesn't matter why you didn't call it

This part of the learning curve - realizing that you can see things you didn't before, but not yet being able to react to them intuitively - is a neat one. Its a big step - being open enough to see the things you've described is a cool feeling, and the first move towards a more aware shooting mentality.

In my experience, what you're going through here is more a case of being visually aware, but unfocused - near as I can tell, this is a normal part of our growth, and results from focusing on things other than calling shots. When I get into it, its usually because I'm either not focused or engaged, or because I've been working on some skills, and I'm focused on executing those skills instead of on paying attention to the sights. The way I move forward from this is to emphasize visual patience and focus on calling the shots in my stage prep routine, as I'm visualizing the stage. This has a way of pulling my focus back to calling shots, but still integrating the new level of awareness that I've found.

My advice, for what its worth, is to try not to get hung up on whether something is good or bad, or on excuses for why things didn't work like you think they should have. Instead, recognize what did happen, identify the parts you want to change, visualize your performance on the stage again substituting in the corrections, and then let it go. If there's a skill that needs refining, or (through drill and experimentation after the fact) you determine equipment needs changing - do so, and own it. There's no good or bad - just what is and isn't. Good or Bad is a judgment, and will cause you to miss what is important - and that's fact: what is or is not.

Hey, BTW - what happened to the fast splits?? One last thought - its not the dot size that "throws" splits, or is erratic... However, the different dot size may allow you to acquire and see the dot more easily.... You might also try an 8 MOA, FWIW...

Thanks Dave.

It's new to me and it helps to talk with people who have been where I am. I am becoming aware of more than what's right in front of me. All the sudden, I was seeing everything, or a lot more anyway, and it was confusing. I lacked the focus and/or didn't have the training to use what I was seeing. I'm a bit like a kid in a candy store running from one thing to the next, but not really seeing any one thing. When it happened my focus was divided over many things and it was hard to real it back... I'm not beating myself up over it, simply throwing it out there for you in the hopes you can help guide me through the process. I need people like you to give me some solid advice along the way.

An 8moa dot? That damn thing would cover the whole head. I will order one up and try it. I "thought" what I was using before was okay, but when I went to the 6... well, I had a 1-3-4 in the last event. Was it only the dot? Nah, I've been putting in solid hours on the range, but it did help me aquire faster.

Edited June 9, 2007 by JThompson

[Mick]

I tried a 12 moa dot when I first shot open until I could anticipate the dot. Now that gun has a 6 moa dot..

[XRe]

I'm only running an 8, cause the 6 seems to wash out too much on me - I lose it in recoil. Switching to an 8 solved that problem (and, yes, I have a glare shield, so...). It took a little bit of getting used to, coming from the 6, but I don't feel I'm really losing much in the way of precision, at this point...

[JThompson]

I tried a 12 moa dot when I first shot open until I could anticipate the dot. Now that gun has a 6 moa dot..

Thanks for your input Mick.

[JThompson]

I'm only running an 8, cause the 6 seems to wash out too much on me - I lose it in recoil. Switching to an 8 solved that problem (and, yes, I have a glare shield, so...). It took a little bit of getting used to, coming from the 6, but I don't feel I'm really losing much in the way of precision, at this point...

I'll order one after I pay off some more tax bills. I've been expending lots of money in lead, powder, and primers.

The casefeeder is going to cut reloading time down a bunch. I wish they made a bullet feeder/auto index for the 550 too.

Thanks again for the insight.

JT

[XRe]

I don't think you're losing anything w/ the 6, for sure. Its my preferred size, actually. If you start noticing, though, that you're losing the dot in recoil, after you've been able to track it (I see this show up in my shooting as a streak of unfocused hosing for some reason), then consider it one thing to check when you troubleshoot the issue. Otherwise, it can probably wait for a while Or, if you can find someone who has one laying around, maybe they'll let you check it out for a little while

[Singlestack]

I shoot a 12 moa dot. Give it a try before you dismiss it.

[JThompson]

I don't think you're losing anything w/ the 6, for sure. Its my preferred size, actually. If you start noticing, though, that you're losing the dot in recoil, after you've been able to track it (I see this show up in my shooting as a streak of unfocused hosing for some reason), then consider it one thing to check when you troubleshoot the issue. Otherwise, it can probably wait for a while Or, if you can find someone who has one laying around, maybe they'll let you check it out for a little while

I'll keep it in mind... I think one of other open guys has an eight. I'll ask him if I can shoot his.

JT

[JThompson]

I shoot a 12 moa dot. Give it a try before you dismiss it.

If I can find one to try I will give it a look.

JT