phara Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I know this has been covered in other forums, but I want to hear from other revolver shooters (especially since we have so many opportunities to forget how many rounds we have shot!). I can dry fire up the ying yang, and shoot slow fire all day and not flinch. However, in a match, shooting fast, when I try to get that 7th shot out of a 6 shot revolver. I will flinch. It's not a big flinch but it sure is embarrassing. So be honest. Do you all do it? Or do I need to work on eliminating it? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Is it a "flinch" or are you just reacting to the timing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted January 29, 2003 Author Share Posted January 29, 2003 Ron, I hadn't thought of it in that way before, but it must be "timing". I'll see it when shooting plates or a string of poppers or IPSC's but not when I have to shoot slowly, say when shooting at a long distance target during a match. I wonder how much if at all, it affects accuracy. Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Quote: from Ron Ankeny on 8:01 am on Jan. 30, 2003 Is it a "flinch" or are you just reacting to the timing? Ron, Could you give more detail. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "reacting to the timing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 phara, Accuracy should be the test. If you still hit well at speed, then it is likely timing. If you miss, it is likely a flinch. The sights and the target should tell the tale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Paul, Does your revolver have a trigger stop? If not, the sudden movement of the trigger after the sear breaks, while the hammer is falling , can produce movement which will show up with shots low and left. It is more evident when under the clock tan in slow fire. If your revolver does have a trigger stop then this effect is minimised and you have a flinch due to the perceived need to recover from recoil and the anticipation of recoil. On slow fire and dry fire, recoil recovery is not part of the equation. The problem is usually that you are consciously trying to recover from recoil before it actually occurs instead of letting the gun recover itself and focussing on pulling the trigger straight back. If your revolver doesn't have a trigger stop, get some cistern valve rubbers, cut to size and glue on the back of the trigger such that the double action is unaffected but the single action is very heavy. Then load 4 random cylinder with live ammo and 2 with empty cases. When you hit the empty cases you will see how much recoil flinch you have, and practising the exercise will help you overcome it. (Edited by George D at 10:10 am on Jan. 30, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted January 30, 2003 Author Share Posted January 30, 2003 George, No I don't have a trigger stop but I'll give it a try. Now I have heard everything! People have told me that my shooting ability was in the toilet but nobody has ever told me that a toilet (part) could fix my shooting ability! Thanks much, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I think you will see some gun movement even on the best shooters when they drop the hammer on an empty chamber unexpectedly. They are not flinching but preparing for the recoil. This is what Ron mentioned about timing. When you are "one with the gun" you expect recoil. You may see it on an auto if the slide doesn't lock back on the last shot. Also, this is not being a smart a$$. Plan your stage and your reloads and if all goes well you will know when you have fired 6. I have gone click, click a few times myself. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcount Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 At the AWARE match one year, Matt Burkett was putting on an evening seminar. Todd Jarrett dropped by. Five minutes into the presentation the two of them got talking about "timing". Todd said with even the best of shooters you will see a slight muzzle dip if the gun goes "click" instead of "bang". He said you might think this was due to a flinch but it actually was "timing", a little bit of recoil anticipation. He said you kinda gotta make the gun go where you want, horse it around a bit, he called it, and this was part of it. I thought this was wonderful news. All this time I thought I had a horrible flinch and it turned out I was pretty good at my timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 George D: I guess you got the answer about "timing". I suppose it is a bad term to use in relationship to a revolver because of the mechanical "timing" of the gun. Sorry to confuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Ron, No problem. I wasn't sure whether you were referring to the mechanical timing, recoil timing or the pressure of the clock timing. "Todd said with even the best of shooters you will see a slight muzzle dip if the gun goes "click" instead of "bang". " It is a bit of a relief to see this said by a top shooter. The pundits in the clubs I've been in have always considered recoil dip as the eighth deadly sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 Yes I di it a little bit, and it is embarrassing. I think it is a habit burned into the muscles from speed shooting, since a controlled flinch (forward push) will reduce muzzle rise and make faster second shots. It also screws up your trigger pull for slow fire bullseye shooting. It affects accuracy very little IF AND ONLY IF the push is timed exactly with the trigger pull.... which tends to make you rush the pull. One excercise I use ot try to overcome the flinch (push) is this: line up the sites and then mentally focus 100% on the trigger pull. Imagine the trigger is a revolver with a long pull and try to pull it as slowly as possible. You should be surprised by the fire. If you are not, you are probably doing the same old move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 ""Todd said with even the best of shooters you will see a slight muzzle dip if the gun goes "click" instead of "bang". " It is a bit of a relief to see this said by a top shooter. The pundits in the clubs I've been in have always considered recoil dip as the eighth deadly sin. " Interesting. My only comment is that the best shooter in our league (by a mile) who has been shooting since dirt was discovered is the only guy I've seen who has absolutely no dip even when he hits an empty cylinder or a bad primer (he has those on a semi-regular basis.... I think the mainspring in his wheelgun is a bit light). He noted after watching me he sometimes saw the slight muzzle dip when I shot. I worked on it and my scores went up proportionally as the dip was improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted January 30, 2003 Share Posted January 30, 2003 I think this is a common thing with revolvers. With a revolver there's no slide moving the gun around. Therefore you can use your muscles more effectively for moving the gun back. I tried to "let the revolver do the work" a couple of times. This just led to the worst split times ever. That big 625 comes back sloooowly on itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted January 30, 2003 Author Share Posted January 30, 2003 Well Hallelujah! Sounds like that little timing "flinch" is normal. It's all in the timing. So next time it happens in a match I'll just say I was working on my "timing"! Spook, I read that "just let the gun recoil the way it wants" statement in Brian's book also. I had the same result as you did. That's what got me thinking about how hard you have to grip the gun. It has been my experience that a very firm grip does help recoil control. That plus the "timing flinch" must certainly help during a fast string of shots. Sounds like revos may be a little different than semi's in this regard. Thanks to all, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1badmagnum Posted February 5, 2003 Share Posted February 5, 2003 dont let your brain know what your trigger finger is thinking:) I concentrate on target aquisition,and let my trigger finger squeeze the trigger before my brain even knows whats happenning. too much thought often hampers your shooting skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted February 11, 2003 Author Share Posted February 11, 2003 1badmagnum, I heard Jerry say that once on TV. He jokingly said that he shoots faster than he can flinch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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