Mason-dixon 3 Gun

[ap3]

Just curious, but am I the only person that thinks being asked to help RO or set-up the match on Saturday and having to pay the full match fee is asking a bit much.

I don't mind at all helping out, but if you have to travel to a match($50) and pay the cost of gas ($40)plus a hotel($50) and any food cost ($25) shouldn't you get some kind of consideration for your trouble.

I just don't see the logic in puttng out $165 in expense to help set-up or RO a match simply for the privledge of shooting on Saturday.

[Jim Norman]

Sadly our group of 8-10 will not be shooting this match this year. We have another obligation on Sunday. Four of our group offered to work the match on Friday so we could shoot on Saturday. No go. So we are not going. Too bad. We were looking forward to the match.

Jim

[BillL223]

I have exactly the same issue for the same reasons, I had already signed up for the NE Shotgun match before the M-D match announcement. I have emailed the match director twice with no response. I'm now planning to shoot the New Holland 600 yard prone match Saturday.

[BamBam]

C'mon guys, I think you are being a little less than forthcoming with your stories...

Its a one day, Sunday, match. And I think we can all agree that a 3-gun match with over 200 rounds and up to 300 yard distances for only $50 is a pretty darn good deal. Those of us working the match will be setting up Thursday and Friday, and then those who setup or who are RO'ing on Sunday will shoot through the match on Saturday and debug the stages. And on top of all that we are offering match fee reductions for each type of volunteer work you do to help us with the match.

AP3 -- Help is on a volunteer basis. You make it sound like you are being forced. That's just silly. If the costs involved with you staying an extra day to help out are not worth what we can offer, than simply shoot the match on Sunday like most other people.

Jim - You are not telling the whole story either. Those of your group who want to setup Friday can certainly shoot Saturday. But having 4 guys work to sneak 8-10 guys all together on Saturday helps you all, but screws everyone else. Saturday is not a full blown match day. There will not be enough RO's to control a big number of people playing through. We need to debug the stages, and many may have to be reshot for accuracy and consistency. The more guys trying to shoot on Saturday, the longer it makes that day for everyone involved.

Look... we are a small club without a lot of dedicated help. We are simply trying to be fair to everyone involved, not just you guys and your friends who are demanding special considerations. Its an all volunteer sport and we are trying to put on the biggest/best match we can, at a low cost, for everyone to enjoy. Not just for you guys, but everyone. If more people are holding their hands out, than offering helping hands, we could wind up with no match at all. And then who really benefits ??

Edited April 9, 2007 by BamBam

[.40AET]

WORKER REFUNDS: $30/day refund for RO/assistant RO, $20/day for set-up, $10 for teardown and transport. Shooters must remit FULL MATCH FEE, refunds up to your total fee paid will be made after the match.

I pulled the quote off of the match application. I don't see where the "no compensation" comes from. Potentially, you could shoot for free.

Personally, I volunteer for no reason other than donating my time back to the sport. The match needs your help. It was scaled back to a single day because it didn't fill up last year. If it sells out this year then next year it should expand again. Without attendance and help, it can't grow.

Sadly, this is the ONLY 3-Gun match in the Mid Atlantic area. I just don't get the fact that it doesn't sell out every year.

[Jim Norman]

WORKER REFUNDS: $30/day refund for RO/assistant RO, $20/day for set-up, $10 for teardown and transport. Shooters must remit FULL MATCH FEE, refunds up to your total fee paid will be made after the match.

I pulled the quote off of the match application. I don't see where the "no compensation" comes from. Potentially, you could shoot for free.

Personally, I volunteer for no reason other than donating my time back to the sport. The match needs your help. It was scaled back to a single day because it didn't fill up last year. If it sells out this year then next year it should expand again. Without attendance and help, it can't grow.

Sadly, this is the ONLY 3-Gun match in the Mid Atlantic area. I just don't get the fact that it doesn't sell out every year.

Bam-bam

We were not trying to "sneak in" to the match, we have another match to attend on Sunday and 4 of our crew were able to schedule a day off to help set-up. the balance of the team are seasoned stage builders and desighers. We are capable of tweaking a stage. We have no problem if a target has to be moved on a stage, all big boys, we'll get over it, all we wanted to do was shoot. I don't think that a discount even entered into our thoughts. Couldn't care less in fact.

.40AET

Not the only 3-Gun Match. Try the 2007 Tactical Challenge at Old Bridge. We will be posting apps shortly. The schedule date is the 4th weekend in October. Shoot Saturday OR Sunday. Weather permitting we will have 9 stages, most being multi-gun.

Also, the West Point match has been or is being rescheduled for earlier in October. then there is the CTI match, the NC Recon, the Carolina 3-gun at Albemarle. There are a few others in North Carolina that I am missing, but there are a lot of matches. Most sadly more than an 8 hour drive for us. but still doable.

Jim

Edited April 9, 2007 by Jim Norman

[ap3]

"Sadly, this is the ONLY 3-Gun match in the Mid Atlantic area. I just don't get the fact that it doesn't sell out every year"

40 AET,

Didn't the West Point Match sell out? Doesn't OB/CATS sell out or have near sell outs? Doesn't the NC recon match sell out?

Your comments raise an interesting question as to why the match doesn't sell out.

I enjoy the match, and will continue to come every year, even if I am frustrated with shooting arraingements for Saturday, if for no other reason than to support 3 gun in this region. However, the CMMG match which has a prize table equivilant to the Trigun challenge is the same weekend. I think a lot of serious 3 gunner will travel just about anywhere for a rich 3 gun match, which is apparent for how fast they sell out. I believe for a low budget match your draw is going to be limited to a smaller pool or regional shooters. I would suggest talking to the people at the Ownesboro(Kentucky) match. They are a small club like yours and have sold out the match every year with a one day only match.

Just my thoughts as would really like to see you guys prosper.

Edited April 10, 2007 by ap3

[BamBam]

To all - We appreciate whatever support you can give. Really we do. And the ability to build, run, and host the match each year depends on the level of volunteer help we receive.

Every shooter should be afforded the opportunity to shoot a big 3-gun within a 4 hour drive or less. Not sure how many on that list you named meet that standard, but we have a huge number of shooters in this area... and if we don't get the help we need to pull this off every year, there will simply be one less big 3-gun to choose from. And not sure how many clubs you listed also have a 300 yard bay, but again, we have a great facility and it would be a terrible shame to lose it due to a lack of support in an area loaded with talent.

For the NJ crew... maybe "sneak" is a bit harsh. But the essence of your request remains the same, you wanted to bend the rules so that 4 could work and let 8-10 shoot with the workers. Call it what you will, but you were looking to bend the rules (and not by a little)so that you and your friends can have more fun and you didn't seem to care how that would affect everyone else. If you want to all shoot together, you can all work together. Or split the squad and shoot on two different days. Or all shoot on Sunday. Or not shoot this year at all. But my point is that there any many options for you to choose from, and it bothers me when people get indignant (and start with the negative posts) when the rest of the world doesn't bend over backwards to service their every personal whim. We try... but it has to be within reason!

I think in the future we could do much better getting match applications out earlier, and when there are enough shooters to merit a two day match, we'll put that kind of match on again. If a company or manufacturer wanted to sponsor the match, we'd happily consider those options as well. Prize tables always sound good, but I'd be curious if the increased match fees for the prize table matches actually help or hurt the shooting/payback averages across the board. I really don't know for sure. However, its my personal opinion that the companies and manufacturers that support the game have been stretched pretty thin. And I am not someone to beg.

We have put this match on twice so far, and each year it got better. Last year we had tremendous feedback. Shooters really enjoyed the match! If you want it to be better, and continue to grow, consider what you are doing to further that goal.

Please register early so that we can plan accordingly, and any help or support you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

Edited April 10, 2007 by BamBam

[ap3]

Apparently registering early means more than 3 weeks before the match or you will get stuck with missing out on other matches and hotel cost that are non-refundable.

SEE BELOW:

Hello to all,

NOTICE: This year's 3 gun has been cancelled...

We got a late start and the match did not fill to a level we were looking for.

We are committed to producing a quality match, not just half of one or 3/4 of

one. We are already beginning to plan for next year to avoid this year's time

crunch and to allow more people to get the word.

Our intentions are to host one major match each year. For the past 2 years that

has been a 3 gun match. But turnout has us wondering if that is the match you

want as shooters. To that end, we will be entertaining suggestions for what kind

of match you would like to see next year. Do you want another 3 gun? Or would

you rather see a Section level pistol match or something else?

Send your suggestions by email to e mailto:matchdirector@mpsa.net .

For the good people who took the time to download a match application for this

year, fill it out and send it in with your check, we will be sending $5 in MPSA

Match Bucks good for any future MPSA match. No checks were deposited, so just mark them off in your checkbooks. We know that some of

you arranged time away from work, took vacation days and arrranged for hotels,

etc. We hope this will underline our appreciation for your support.

In place of the 3 gun in May, we will hold a regular club level match - either

pistol or rifle - we'll let you know in an upcoming match announcement.

Bill

[MPSA.NET]

Hmmm...

I was going to post an announcement about our unfortunate cancellation, but I see that Al beat me to it.

In doing so, he raises an interesting question. How does one manange to find a hotel with cancellation policy that requires you to give more than 3 weeks notice or still be forced to pay? I have been traveling and staying in hotes of every description for decades and have never heard of one that would not accept a cancellation as late as the day before. Time for a new travel agent, Al.

If anyone has any questions about the timing of the cancellation or anything else to do with the match, I refer you now back to BamBam. He has, and is doing a fine job representing us here and I'll go back to reading much and posting little (to the detriment of my post totals).

[ap3]

Hmmm...

I was going to post an announcement about our unfortunate cancellation, but I see that Al beat me to it.

In doing so, he raises an interesting question. How does one manange to find a hotel with cancellation policy that requires you to give more than 3 weeks notice or still be forced to pay? I have been traveling and staying in hotes of every description for decades and have never heard of one that would not accept a cancellation as late as the day before. Time for a new travel agent, Al.

When you buy them on the internet through travel companies in an attempt to save money. It is not a new travel agent Al needs, but a new match!

I think I am just going to give up on 3gun on the East Coast.

Edited April 24, 2007 by ap3

[Jim Norman]

ap,

Mark your calendar for October. OBCATS WILL be running a multigun match, 9 stages, one day and we'll run it just for us if needs be.

I too am sorry that MPSA canceled, but we had 4 people ready to go down and build 2 stages so 8-10 of us could shoot on Saturday. No takers on their part. You've likely seen the postings here.

We shot this match last year. One of our squad was near to passing out from heat, and the Ro on one stage was ready to DQ him for not taping. We already had the taping and setting more than covered. Sadly, i think that there may be more to why the match didn't fill than just a late start.

I know we emailed them multiple times and got no responses. Their website was down for an extrended period. These are things that need to be worked around immediately, between the USPSA Forums and this Forum there was not reason taht the information could not have been made available. Heck get a dialup email account and post it here just for the one match.

Jim

[ap3]

I will add it to my calender, and look forward to the match. Multi-gun and tactical are always a lot of fun.

[Nik Habicht]

In doing so, he raises an interesting question. How does one manange to find a hotel with cancellation policy that requires you to give more than 3 weeks notice or still be forced to pay? I have been traveling and staying in hotes of every description for decades and have never heard of one that would not accept a cancellation as late as the day before. Time for a new travel agent, Al.

I'm not Al, and there's no Holiday Inn closer than the Super 8 I stayed in last year ---- but Holiday Inn is my preferred chain, when they're located close to the match venue. That said --- their best room rates are often available with pre-payment, which includes a first nights lodging penalty, when cancelling.......

I enjoyed the match last year ---- and am sorry that things didn't work out this year. Hopefully next year things will come together and we'll be enjoying a terrific match at a really nice facility......

[MPSA.NET]

Hi, Jim.

Our match for this year was to be a one day match as far as the public goes. It was called 'Evolution Match" for a reason as we were changing many things in the match to accommodate suggestions we received after the first 3 gun. Taking an extra day to wring out the changes so that the match would run smoothly was what workers shooting on Saturday was all about. I thought we communicated that in the announcements and in phone calls and emails and with BamBam's posts here. My apologies if there were misunderstandings about why it was to be a Sunday only shoot.

Jim, I'm having a little trouble reconciling how it would be fair to have a friend of each of your workers shoot Saturday when we obviously could not offer this to everyone. That should be the test, should it not? Whether we can offer the same accommodations to everyone?? Your proposal asked for special considerations for a few - an option unavailable to others. Please try to look at it from the perspective of someone wanting to shoot Saturday but not having such a connection.

I did receive two emails. Before I got to them, you caught me by phone and we talked about all of the above for nearly 45 minutes. After that conversation, you emailed BamBam privately and continued to ask for special considerations. When that didn't work, you brought it to this forum, leaving out that we has spoken on the phone and you had exchanged emails with BamBam and had been told why your request could not be accommodated. For what purpose?

Is anyone still confused about the Saturday? Can you let that particular one rest now?

In the match cancellation posted by Al above, I made it clear that we got a late start. It would not have mattered whether the web site was up or down, as it had nothing to do with the delay. We posted the match announcement both in mass emails and list-managed emails as soon as we had the details needed to do so. The match dates and details were echoed to this forum on March 11 - as soon as they were available. I also stated that we are planning now for next year to try to avoid the time crunch we had this year.

We are unhappy that the match will not happen this year as much as any one else. But to read your posts, one would think that you believe we set out to inconvenience you all on purpose...

Just the same, I hope you have an enjoyable match in October, Jim.

(edited for typos - I probably still missed some)

Edited April 24, 2007 by MPSA.NET

[BamBam]

I think its clear when you see the same 2 or 3 people complaining here, and the same 2 or 3 people who are actually working the match respond, that there just is not that much interest in three gun around these parts. Either in attending, or running the match, or both.

[BillL223]

There is plenty of interest in 3-Gun around here. I shot the Mason-Dixon the last two years. When I emailed the match director regarding Sunday only shooting twice, I received NO response. West Point (having their own problems) sold out, NY Rifle match and it looks like PA Rifle match are sold out, and OBCATS 3-gun sells out or is very near capacity. York IWL sells out whenever long guns are included. I don't know if I am on the list of "2 or 3" complainers, but after last years match I sent what, I thought, was a detailed message on how to improve the match.

[Jim Norman]

Just for the record, we never spoke. You have me confused with one of the other people in our group. As to wringing out the details on Saturday, We really didn't care, we, the 8-10 of us that wanted to come down regularly run matches, we had no problem dealing with delays or even if required just shooting for fun.

And there is more interest in 3-gun / Multi-Gun here in the East than you are aware of. CTI, NC Recon, OBCATS, West Point, Ft, Benning, More three gun matches in North Carolina than I can count, try 3 gun match dot com. they have an extensive list.

We'll see if next year happens.

Jim

[ALRAY]

I think its clear when you see the same 2 or 3 people complaining here, and the same 2 or 3 people who are actually working the match respond, that there just is not that much interest in three gun around these parts. Either in attending, or running the match, or both.

I don't see how it's clear here at all. As Bill mentioned, there's plenty of interest as evidenced by the sold out matches listed.

I shot the match the last two years and had a great time the first year, then was turned off the second year by an an isolated BS incident with an RO which I think was alluded to here earlier, but anyone can have a bad day and I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. I was truly looking forward to this year's match until I found out there was a conflict

As far as suggestions go, I am not big on posting here so I will keep it brief:

1. Check with other area clubs to avoid conflicts with other matches. I personally know about 12 people who would have attended if it did not conflict with another match, and am aware of another 8-10 that are in the same situation. That would make 20+ potential attendees for a Saturday session if it were available. That figure may not make or break the match for you, but it gives some good insight as to what happened to a significant portion of prior match attendees.

2. If you are going to decide to run a match, bite the bullet and be accomodating to the "market's" needs and desires (Event Planning 101). Obviously they weren't addressed and the match was unable to gain enough interest and is now cancelled.

3. If you don't have the support to put on the match locally, maybe it's time to reconsider. It's hard to expect shooters to take time off from work and incur significant travel expenses to come work at a match. Most seasoned shooters I know of contribute significantly at their home clubs and that is really how this sport of ours survives and allows us to be able to travel to all parts of this country to shoot great matches.

4. Lighten up. Throughout this post, talk about "bending the rules", and "sneaking in" left a poor impression. And trying to impose guilt on this crowd with "If you want it to be better, and continue to grow, consider what you are doing to further that goal." is probably poorly received. As I mentioned above, most here are probably big contributors at their home clubs and don't need to be lectured about the nature of our volunteer sport.

So the match is cancelled and that's too bad for all of us in the NE. I would have liked to have shot it, but now I have an additional $300 saved that can go towards shooting DPMS tri-gun or another big 3 gun match.

As I mentioned, I am not big on posting here but I wanted to make it clear that while it seems that it's just "the same 2 or 3 people complaining here", they probably represent the sentiments of many others, but not everyone has the time or inclination to be on the forum reading and posting on a regular basis.

[ap3]

I agree wil Bill and Jim there is a lot of interest in 3 gun on the East Coast and they are right every match they listed about selling out is a fact. West Point sold out almost a month in advance, and their only reason for cancelling was they had so much ice on the range it was a safety issue. They turned around and rescheduled the match for October as a show of good faith.

There are examples all across the East Coast of what it takes to have a sell out match. Criticizing the people who signup early, provide feedback for improvement or ask for some flexibility so they could attend is not the way to create a sell out match.

CMMG had a huge 3 gun match last year with more match management problems than I have ever seen, but they actively sought out input and this year have incorporated a lot of those changes into the match. Looks like they are headed for a sell out this year.

Right after I made this post I saw ALRAY had made a post,so I just wanted to edit mine to say I think he is dead on.

Edited April 25, 2007 by ap3

[BamBam]

Jim,

I think you keep missing the point of your unusual partial/Saturday offer to help, in that you didn't mind the inconvenience, but the rest of us did. You've got to take into account the burden your special conditions place on others.

This sport doesn't have a lot of rules to come out and play, but if there is a one day match announced you ought to at least figure that is when you are expected to shoot. Those who want to work the match shoot a different day. Its all pretty easy to follow. Your group from Jersey tried to play every angle on this issue calling and emailing back channels, posting here, etc. No wonder Jersey gets a bad rap around the country

Regardless of the pro/con comments on this thread, there just aren't a whole lot of different voices speaking out. Its a game of numbers at times, and we didn't have enough numbers, with less than a month to go, to move forward. Maybe we picked a bad weekend. Clearly we had a late start this year getting information out, compounded by having the web site down for so long while we switched servers.

So in cancelling this year we are asking the area shooters for a gut check regarding next year. We especially appreciate those of you who came out the first two years, and we had a ton of great feedback after year number 2. It really was a great match (other than blazing heat!). If enough people want the match, we'll gladly put it on yet again.

[ap3]

Jim,

I think you keep missing the point of your unusual partial/Saturday offer to help, in that you didn't mind the inconvenience, but the rest of us did. You've got to take into account the burden your special conditions place on others.

This sport doesn't have a lot of rules to come out and play, but if there is a one day match announced you ought to at least figure that is when you are expected to shoot. Those who want to work the match shoot a different day. Its all pretty easy to follow. Your group from Jersey tried to play every angle on this issue calling and emailing back channels, posting here, etc. No wonder Jersey gets a bad rap around the country

Regardless of the pro/con comments on this thread, there just aren't a whole lot of different voices speaking out. Its a game of numbers at times, and we didn't have enough numbers, with less than a month to go, to move forward. Maybe we picked a bad weekend. Clearly we had a late start this year getting information out, compounded by having the web site down for so long while we switched servers.

So in cancelling this year we are asking the area shooters for a gut check regarding next year. We especially appreciate those of you who came out the first two years, and we had a ton of great feedback after year number 2. It really was a great match (other than blazing heat!). If enough people want the match, we'll gladly put it on yet again.

Bam Bam,

Your missing the point we all sometimes have obligations (family,friends,work,or prior committments) that require us to ask for flexibility as they were trying to support your match,and I am sure had the shoe been on the other foot Jim would have given you some flexibility so you could attend his match.

I am not willing to do a "gut check" about attending your match(I have attended for the last two years) if I know that after skipping a much more lucrative match with tougher competition in order to support you guys you will bail out on me 3 weeks before the match date.

[BamBam]

AP3 -

I understand you guys have other obligations (family, work, etc) but you all need to understand that so do we! The shoe would never be on the other foot, as I understand how shoes work and I wear them the way they are designed. I read the instructions, and decide whether I will go to a match or not based on what is being offered, not based on what I want to have.

Last year the match staff burned two vacation days each from our jobs (yes, we all have them) to setup the match during the week and run it as a two day match over the full weekend (away from our families, yes we have them too). Since we were not at capacity last year on either day, it made sense to us to offer the match this year as a one day event. Maybe that was not such a great idea.

I feel bad we had to cancel, especially for people such as yourself who made travel arrangements in advance. But you also have to understand the effort and cost involved in running the match, and the need we have to cancel if attendance is poor. If these other matches you go to are so lucrative, I'll quit my day job and shoot against you for the big bucks!

[MPSA.NET]

Jim: " Just for the record, we never spoke. You have me confused with one of the other people in our group. As to wringing out the details on Saturday, We really didn't care, we, the 8-10 of us that wanted to come down regularly run matches, we had no problem dealing with delays or even if required just shooting for fun."

You will pardon me if I don't remember the names and faces of the members of your group. You will also pardon me if I assumed you speak with each other and I believed that each of you knew of the phone conversation by the end of that same night.

There still seems to be some confusion so I will spell it out plainly.

We listened to the suggestions made over the last 2 years and incorporated two major ones into the match this year. Both of them have the serious potential to greatly disrupt the flow of the match as compared to previous years, introducing bottle necks at unknown places. That meant with such a possible drastic changes in stage to stage flow, we needed a limited number dry run to iron out the kinks.

While we have ROs who shoot well and want to win the match as much as any one else, they and the rest of the match staff have other primary concerns, the first three being that the match is safe, fun and successful. I get that you guys either run matches yourselves or help at them regularly. What I don't get is why I have to explain this to you.

Jim, no matter how much you want to paint that your experienced crew was just trying to help us out, it won't wash. Your group was looking for special consideration over and above what we could offer to the rest of the shooters. If it was offered to you, it must be offered to all and that was not going to work. Do you not see the inequities in what you asked? Since you keep bringing it up, it is clear that you do not.

Pleadings that there are jobs, families, expenses, and other things on your plate don't make your crew's Friday, Saturday or Sunday any more important than those of any other shooter's. We all have those obligations and concerns. I'm a bit surprised that that has to be explained to you as well.

Foremost in IPSC rules is safety. Once that is satisfied, the next most important thing is to provide a level playing field. At MPSA, that means everyone gets the same chances and options as best we can manage. And not just in the stage presentation, but in all options associated with a match, including worker's compensation and shooting times and squadding requests.

What you asked us to do was just plain wrong. It is sad that you cannot see it.

For ALRAY:

Thank you for your suggestions. Finally there is something in this thread that is useful.

1. We actually scheduled the use of the ranges for May with the club somewhere around October of last year. This was well before many other clubs had published anything. We were originally scheduled to start planning in earnest January, but, as I pointed out above, we all have outside things chewing into our time. Had we gotten started as originally anticipated, we probably would all be looking at posted stages now and anticipating how to shave a second here or there. There probably would be fewer conflicts with other matches as we would have announced much sooner. But, as I said earlier, we got a late start and that is much of the problem.

2. I can see how people would mistakenly think that we aren't listening, but I assure you we have been. We were making major changes to the makeup of the match. Those changes will carry over to next year depending on what we hear about demand for 3 gun. It is all well and good that the group is telling us about all these successful 3 gun matches hundreds of miles from us, but we are also looking at the interest level of our local shooters.

3. I have only a few doubts about getting enough people to staff the match. What killed it this year was lack of shooter interest for all the reasons we have hashed and re-hashed here. By asking for feedback in the match cancellation email, shooter interest for a match specifically at MPSA is something I hope to gage.

4. Lighten up. Maybe we should all just take off our shoes and relax a bit. But, it is difficult for me to personally lighten up when I must address and re-address some unreasonable expectations more times than I can now remember.

Those of you who want to see a 3 gun at MPSA, I'd like to hear from you (and how many friends you will bring).

Those of you who want to continue grouse about things we have addressed ad nauseum, well we all make choices, don't we?

(edited because my day job is not 'typist')

Edited April 25, 2007 by MPSA.NET

[Gregory_k]

Had fun at both matches, even with the heat.

This year others in the "squad" I shoot with had other items on there plates.

We all have personal lives, so when people take the extra time to set up a match, I am usally happy that there is a match to shoot.