First-time Shooter Incident

[Jim Norman]

When I started shooting USPSA it was at the local club. There was a little bit of outdated information on the club website. I went one night, managed not to get DQ'd (First off we need to make sure people realize that we aren't talking Dairy Queen here) After seeing that I had very little Idea of where to go and what to do, one kindly soul took me under his wing and initiated me to the rules.

Fast Forward.

We now run a 1-2 hour orientation twice a month at our reguarly scheduled indoor practice match. There is a cadre of experianced people here that know each other and generally are the ones bringing in a newbie. However if a newbie wanders in, he is immediately recognized as such and after determinning that he is in fact NEW qand not just new to us, given the class. We cover the basics, such as "Don't Shoot me, DOn't shoot my truck, and don't shoot anyone else on your squad"

Seriously, we run him/her through a basic intor to the rules that will keep you out of trouble and help you to enjoy your first and subsquent matches.

Gun handling areas, and all the rules associated with them.

The 180 Rule

Handling out side the Safe Area

Movement and reloading

"Unsafe Gunhandling"

We also cover a bit of the history and the scoring aspects.

Keep this in mind...

We all know what is meant by a "Cold Range" a Newbie might think he needs a sweater or a coat!

Sadly, the days where every father taught every sone how to handle a gun are long gone (if they ever really existed)

I shot my first gun at the tender age of 4. I have worked with people on the range that are shooting their first gun at the tender age of 44.

Most people know what they know about guns from watching too many action movies. When they see what we (or at least the better ones of us) actually do, they are either impressed and want to learn how, or they wonder why we can't hold one gun in each hand and while doing an ariel roll engage targets on both sides of us with no colateral damage.

Seriously, Asuume NOTHING about your new shooters. They may be a completely blank slate, OR they may be new to us, but classifying as a Master in a year after they start USPSA. (We had this happen, Herman, you know who you are)

Jim Norman

[EatMeerkats]

Dave, as one of the relatively new shooters last week, thanks for putting up with us. I still can't believe I forgot my glasses though... I've never forgotten anything at a range until now. I had a great time and will certainly be back next month!

[davidball]

Dave, as one of the relatively new shooters last week, thanks for putting up with us. I still can't believe I forgot my glasses though... I've never forgotten anything at a range until now. I had a great time and will certainly be back next month!

EatMeerkats-

Enjoyed shooting with you. As was stated in a previous post, having new shooters is a good problem to have. Just a matter of making sure everybody gets educated as soon as possible and everybody shoots safely.

[Nik Habicht]

is it considered handling your firearm if you put on a paddle holster with the pistol already in it, never touching/handling the gun? i tend to do this and have never had anyone question it.

frye

Not kosher at a USPSA match....

[Bret Heidkamp]

Me as RO to new competitor: Load and make ready!

New competitor: I already am!

I am happy to read in this forum everyone sees it as really the fault of the experienced hands to not inform a new competitor. I would never DQ someone for this, although we all have known people that would. Those personalities have done more to drive away new competitors than anything.

Slight thread drift - when I ran our local club we changed the clinic name from "new shooter" to "new competitor" here. That seemed appropriate as most had shooting experience, many a lifetime of it! It somehow came across as a bit derogatory to call them new shooters...

[davidball]

Slight thread drift - when I ran our local club we changed the clinic name from "new shooter" to "new competitor" here.

I like this distinction.

[Lee Bell]

The club I currently belong to had a pretty good process the first time I shot with them, before I was a club member. They specifically delegated the job of talking all who were shooting with the club for the first time through the safety procedures. It wasn't the most detailed training I ever had, but it got the basics across, including such things as handling a gun only in the safety zone and not handling ammunition there.

Just my $.02 worth, but I think that's a good practice for every shooting organization.

Lee

[Jake Di Vita]

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if this has already been posted but I'm in a bit of a hurry.

How can you DQ a person from a match before the match has even started? As far as I knew the rulebook only extends from the beginning to the end of the match...I thought that the beginning of the match was after the first round was fired?

This is more of a question rather than a statement.

[Sam]

I think it comes down to a question of responsibility. Is it the new shooters repsonsibility to "know" or our responsibility to tell them. I just had the priveledge of bringing a first time USPSA shooter to match two weeks ago. Same thing happened. I looked up and Shazaam, he's packing his blaster. I felt like I had slipped and fallen flat on my tukus. (First thing I did was look around to see if anyone else noticed.)

I apologized for almost getting him DQed from his first match and took him to see the safety area.

One problem we have around here is that a great many of us show up packing our Rosco, coz not packing it on yer hip in Wyoming makes about as much sense as carrying your wallet in a purse instead of your jeans pocket. I try to remember to clear my gun in the car, before I get to the match. After the match eveyone "goes hot" again in the parking lot before leaving the range. When the match is over, it's over.

One of my buddies always reminds me to "Never put an empty gun back in your holster! That way, you'll never have an empty gun in your holster!

Go easy on the new guys. We want them to stay around and get pretty good, so we have new people to test us.

[LChico]

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if this has already been posted but I'm in a bit of a hurry.

How can you DQ a person from a match before the match has even started? As far as I knew the rulebook only extends from the beginning to the end of the match...I thought that the beginning of the match was after the first round was fired?

This is more of a question rather than a statement.

You can certainly DQ someone before the first shot is fired. We DQ'd a guy once when he sent a round through the spare tire in his trunk as everyone was getting their gear out of their vehicles in the parking lot. You have never seen a group of shooters hit the ground faster! The blessing is he missed his gas tank or any fuel lines. It was a bit hard to argue that he wasn't handling a loaded gun. Actually, I guess he DID fire the first shot. . .

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Columbia SC

[Ron Ankeny]

First thing I did was look around to see if anyone else noticed.

I wondered why you were escorting your buddy to the safety area with the sheepish look on your face. We had the same thing happen today at our match. Afterall, we shoot on a public range and everyone that doesn't know the rules saddles up at the pick up truck.

Edited March 26, 2007 by Ron Ankeny

[BBunin]

It's true .... new shooters are blind to the rules, so ignorance abounds. Not really their fault.

I once saw a new shooter pull his gun out of his range bag and holster it at his car, so I said "Hey, you can't do that here."

So he immediately un-holstered it, and quickly put it back in his range bag. [sigh]

Differentt Clubs, different rules.

At our club, that IS normal.

Most of us gear up at the car, then proceed from the parking lot to the clubhouse.

[Sam]

Crap! Somebody did see.

Nope, that wasn't a sunburn on my face. I felt like an idiot.

Good to see lots of new folks. And I'll be more diligent in the future.

Drift:

Chico, I'll bet you already know that repair shops have to report to law enforcement when a vehicle comes in for repairs with a bullet hole.

A few years ago, this out-of-state hunter limped a Chevy pickup, pouring smoke, into the dealership. "What's the problem with it", the service manager asked?

"Tranny's shot"!

[bubback]

I believe the new rule will state that the match begins when the person helping to run the match arrives at the range and the match will officially end when the last match personel leave the range.

Bubba

[davidball]

How can you DQ a person from a match before the match has even started?

As has been eluded to above . . .

* Handling a firearm somewhere other than a safe area OR under the supervision of an RO

* Handling ammunition in the safe area

And one could add . . .

* Unsportsmanlike conduct

* Retrieving a dropped firearm

* Being under the influence of drugs or alcohol

[Jake Di Vita]

Correct...but when does the match officially start? If it hasn't started yet....how can you dq someone from it.

[davidball]

Correct...but when does the match officially start? If it hasn't started yet....how can you dq someone from it.

I think this is a very interesting question.

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity during an IPSC match will be disqualified from

that match, and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining

courses of fire in that match regardless of the schedule or

physical layout of the match.

If the match has to have begun for a DQ to be issued, and the start of the match is the first shot fired, then technically someone could arrive at a match and wave their loaded firearm wildly in the air and suffer no consequences, as long a the first shot has not been fired.

That don't seem right.

I just quickly perused the rule book and didn't find anything about what designates the start or finish of a match.

Edited March 26, 2007 by davidball

[Jim Norman]

Might I suggest that this be cross posted over on USPSA forums. THe hend of the comment period is fast approaching and this is exactly the kind of thing that needs to be commented on.

Jim

[davidball]

Might I suggest that this be cross posted over on USPSA forums.

Done.

Link

Edited March 27, 2007 by davidball

[Flexmoney]

If the match has to have begun for a DQ to be issued, and the start of the match is the first shot fired, then technically someone could arrive at a match and wave their loaded firearm wildly in the air and suffer no consequences, as long a the first shot has not been fired.

I'm not sure when the match officially starts, but the first shot fired isn't it.

A stage officially starts at LAMR.

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety

area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a

direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

8.3.1 “Load And Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of

“the Course of Fire”...

6.6.3 A match, tournament or league will be deemed to have started on

the first day[??] that competitors (including those specified above)

shoot for score and will be deemed to have ended when the

results have been declared final by the Match Director.

[davidball]

The "at any time" in 10.5.1 does not seem to relate to the match start / finish parameter but rather to contrast the two "times" (safe area or under the supervision of a Range Officer) a firearm can be handled.

Not trying to be nit-picky. I'm wondering if Jake hasn't identified a rules problem that needs to be clarified. Would not designating that a match is in progress ("during an IPSC match") on any day there is competition from the moment a competitor enters the range property until the competitor leaves the range property (or some such wording) clear things up?

[Flexmoney]

I agree.

[Shawn Knight]

Actions way before the match even starts can translate to actions after the match begins. I am all for DQing someone being completely unsafe, but if the person has never been told what is to be expected, you can't hold them responsible for bad training. I like to think of this in relation to a new recruit. In the Air Force we have 3, 5, 7, and 9 level technicians. Think of a newbie shooter as 3 level. Yourselves being the 7 and 9 levels. Would you just expect the 3 level to know what he is and is not supposed to do? From the time we are born till the day we die we are still learning new things. If I get to learn anything here it will be that we don't just DQ someone but train them on why they got DQed or let them slide after explaining why they could have been DQed. If the person has not learned anything, then maybe it is time to find another game. In the USAF we have what we call QA or Quality Assurance inspectors. If you screw up in front of QA it is like a screw up in front of the RO. You will get hammered or DQed. We all need to remember we were that new once. I have never had the opportunity to see someone DQed in real life(I hope I never do) but I have seen the Steel challenge on TV. We all know what can happen. Someone fooling around with their gun is different from a person putting a cleared gun on while it is in the holster. Safety Safety Safety. If it has not been hammered into us then it not being hammered into the newbies. If you see these actions happening or a trend starting because of your inaction against it, then who is truly at fault?

You are responsible for the actions you do not correct. Wouldn't it be very different if the whole match got canceled if we had a single DQ. Everyone and their brother would be running up to you then.

[davidball]

10.3.1 A competitor who commits a safety infraction or any other prohibited

activity while an IPSC match is in progress will be disqualified from

that match, and will be prohibited from attempting any remaining

courses of fire in that match regardless of the schedule or

physical layout of the match. An IPSC match is said to be "in progress" for

a given competitor from the time said competitor arrives at the match range

on a scheduled competition day until said competitor leaves the range OR

until the results have been declared final by the Match Director, whichever

comes first.

What do you think?

[WestWorld]

I'm new to IDPA/USPSA as well. Before I went to my first match I read the rulebook and researched online until I had a general idea of what was required. I'm still learning and I appreciate the help I've received.

I have since invited other new shooters out to our club... I tell them to show up with a gun, holster and ammo in a bag unloaded. I also tell them before pulling the bag out of the car, to find someone to explain what is required of them before proceeding any further.