New Build Debugging

[Austin Bradley]

Need to know:

All the software you loaded as there are conflicts with bad pool in the following areas associated with faulty/incompatible hardware or more likely faulty drivers. Areas researched that show this header are

*Nero

*Norton

*Winamp

*Active-x (disable for now)

*Firefox

*ATI drivers (fixed with omegas)

*USB drivers (one fix mentioned using the adapter for PS on the usb connect)

*A router incorrectly set the packet fragmentation bit on a browser broadcast datagram packet. The Tcpip.sys driver attempts to reassemble this packet and causes pool memory corruption. <see netgear>

*SB Audigy sound card drivers

*NETGEAR (capped for a reason with the LAN driver issue you have)

*Isochronous devices such as a webcam , consumer grade cameras and audio devices require the specific timing coordination. When data travels across a busy network, data packets can experience variable delays due to network traffic. This 'first come', 'first served' delivery method is problematic for isochronous devices because the data must be delivered within specific time restraints.

*Is your system BIOS Cache enabled? Disable it.

*match memory timings in your bios with your memory

Reboot in Safe Mode (press F8 a few times when the PC is starting up).

If the problem does not happen there, then it's a hardware driver conflict.

Rerun Windows XP Setup from the installation disk, but choose to "repair" XP.

ok finally got some time bc of school.

no nero on this comp

norton was uninstalled immediately after it was installed

no winamp

im guessing the activex you are talking about is what you disable in internet options. i

disabled it.

mozilla firefox is installed version 2.0.0.1 Mozilla Thunderbird is also installed

the latest drivers for radeon chipset x1950 is installed off of ati website

usb drivers installed with mobo inf and windows are the only ones on here.

I do not have any periphials installed exept for speakers, mouse, keyboard so im pretty

sure i dont have any isochronous devices.

I did not notice any caching on the bios screen

im not sure i totally understand the netgear issues. We have a netgear wireless router hooked to the satellite modem. The problem comp is hooked to it via network cable. we dont have a network card, its using the onboard LAN. I downloaded and installed a LAN driver off the intel website but i dont have any netgear drivers and there is nothing related to netgear in any folder.

Im working on the other things now...

Edited January 13, 2007 by Austin Bradley

[Austin Bradley]

i found the memory timings for the ocz memory is 4-5-4-15 so i went into the bios. the bios detects the memory running at 5-4-4-14. The bios setting was set at automatic and the bios had itself set at 5-5-5-15. so i tried to change it 4-5-4-15 and 5-4-4-14 and the bios failed to POST both times when i saved the changes. so currently its still set on automatic with a 5-5-5-15 timing.

[Austin Bradley]

Interesting. Try the DIMM swapping, if you can.

This entire morning I have not been able to get the computer to go to a bsod or restart. As soon as it does i am going to record the error, analyze the kernal dump file then try swapping memory out with my computer that runs flawless. Should I switch the memory out completely or try the other slots on the mobo?

[Nik Habicht]

Interesting. Try the DIMM swapping, if you can.

This entire morning I have not been able to get the computer to go to a bsod or restart. As soon as it does i am going to record the error, analyze the kernal dump file then try swapping memory out with my computer that runs flawless. Should I switch the memory out completely or try the other slots on the mobo?

This may be a really stupid question ---- but you've got open ram slots? Are the modules installed in the correct slots? Are they color coded? I seem to remember something about using slots 1&3, if only installing 2 DIMMs.......

[Putty]

Full circle to that intel mobo.....

[Austin Bradley]

This may be a really stupid question ---- but you've got open ram slots? Are the modules installed in the correct slots? Are they color coded? I seem to remember something about using slots 1&3, if only installing 2 DIMMs.......

Yes the motherobardc has 4 slots and slots 1 and 3 are either blue or black and 2 and 4 are the other color. To run in dual channel you have to use identical dimms in the color coded slots. I have two identical dimms installed in 1 and 3.

Full circle to that intel mobo.....

?????????

[AustinMike]

Interesting. Try the DIMM swapping, if you can.

This entire morning I have not been able to get the computer to go to a bsod or restart. As soon as it does i am going to record the error, analyze the kernal dump file then try swapping memory out with my computer that runs flawless. Should I switch the memory out completely or try the other slots on the mobo?

To isolate a bad DIMM, you can run only one, then the other. Or a complete swap-out might be necessary if you can only get the problem with both. Not to say that memory is a problem, but I recently helped a customer who was getting mysterious panics and other weird behavior on a system. The problem followed the memory to another system that was working fine when I swapped them out.

[Austin Bradley]

Interesting. Try the DIMM swapping, if you can.

This entire morning I have not been able to get the computer to go to a bsod or restart. As soon as it does i am going to record the error, analyze the kernal dump file then try swapping memory out with my computer that runs flawless. Should I switch the memory out completely or try the other slots on the mobo?

To isolate a bad DIMM, you can run only one, then the other. Or a complete swap-out might be necessary if you can only get the problem with both. Not to say that memory is a problem, but I recently helped a customer who was getting mysterious panics and other weird behavior on a system. The problem followed the memory to another system that was working fine when I swapped them out.

Well I just realized I am limited to trying dimms separately because my computer has DDR dimms instead of DDR2. I still havent got the comp to error no matter what I do.

[Austin Bradley]

Ok i let automatic updates run today since it would not error for anything. tonight i went to turn it off and let it do the install before turning off and it locked up at the 41 out of 51 install. Immediately after I reboot it went to bsod:

PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA

Stop: 0x00000050

I read the memory.dmp file which said it was partially corrupt....

debugging details of .dmp file:

***** Kernel symbols are WRONG. Please fix symbols to do analysis.

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Unable to read selector for PCR for processor 0

Probably caused by : ntkrpamp.exe ( nt!ExAllocatePoolWithTag+66a )

[Putty]

Disable hyperthreading in the bios. Only audio and video encoders realize this advantage.

I assume you checked your memory for errors.

You still have not listed your software that is loaded, so it is a crapshoot from my end as to a remedy for your situation. Some software willl try to reach an address that is not in physical RAM.

[AustinMike]

Ouch. Not fun. The page fault error is so ambiguous. In a nutshell, the Windows memory manager encountered an error resolving a page fault (i.e. a virtual memory address could not be resolved to a physical page of memory.) Unfortunately, this could be a hardware or a software bug, so it doesn't narrow things down for you. The address could have been hosed by bad memory, either DIMM or processor L2 cache. It could have been a software bug, accessing an invalid address.

If the error is repeatable all you can do is to change one and only one variable at a time, within your control.

Hardware: Will it happen with only one DIMM? Does it happen with both DIMMs (one bad, other OK?) Remove unnecessary harware, one at a time (disable in BIOS or remove drivers for hardwired stuff.) If system has embedded video, run off of that instead of video card. Slowly and methodically, work your way down to a stable configuration. This may identify a hardware culprit.

Software: Same thing. Remove things one by one. You're really only concerned with things that load drivers at startup (ex. anti-virus, peripheral drivers and utilities.)

Do a bunch of reboots after changing things to see if you get a BSOD. You can automate that part at least (open a command window on XP and type "shutdown /?" for info on Windows shutdown and reboot - make a batch file and stick it in your startup folder.)

There is no easy solution, unless you happen to hit upon a likely suspect early in the trouble shooting. Things like this is why I don't build systems from parts anymore. Much better to have a trusted builder or manufacturer with known compatible hardware options who will support you and let them spend their time resolving such problems should any arise. Kinda like building a gun, in a way. You can grab a box of "drop-in" parts from reputable vendors, but that doesn't mean you'll come out with a flawless 1911.

I feel your pain, I hate computer problems!

[Austin Bradley]

I ran a memtest last weekend on both sticks of ram which locked up a minute into it. So today I removed "DIMM 2" and tested "DIMM 1." It had 11 errors and locked up 30 seconds in. So I proceeded to test DIMM 2 by itself and it passed every test perfectly so I am running the computer tonight with just that stick to see if it errors in windows.

Disable hyperthreading in the bios. Only audio and video encoders realize this advantage.

I assume you checked your memory for errors.

You still have not listed your software that is loaded, so it is a crapshoot from my end as to a remedy for your situation. Some software willl try to reach an address that is not in physical RAM.

Ok for a list of all software:

ATI Catalyst Control Center

ATI Display Driver

AVG Free Edition

Debugging Tools for Windows

High Definition Audio Driver Package - KB888111

Intel Audio Studio 2.0

Intel Desktop Utilities

Intel PRO Network Connections 11.1.0.19

Microsoft .NET Framework 1.1

Mozilla Firefox (2.0.0.1)

Mozilla Thunderbird (1.5)

MSXML 4.0 SP2 (KB927978)

MSXML 4.0 SP2 Parser and SDK

Samsung ML-2250 Series

SigmaTel Audio

Windows Installer 3.1 (KB893803)

Winzip

Also there is nothing related to HyperThreading in the bios... i know there should be but there isnt.

[chuckbradley]

Are you telling me I should of got a Dell? I used to use Tandy computers, the first was the TRS180 which I wrote a basic language program for to do daily balance sheets for my dads grocery. A program I wrote in 1985 which was used in my grocery store until I sold it 3 years ago. I should have packaged it and sold it. When Tandy went away I bought a packard bell and had all kinds of problems with it. Ever since I have only used custom built computers, never had a problem like this before. Good thing is austin learned allot. Now if I was to buy a built system who has the best product?

[George]

Now if I was to buy a built system who has the best product?

Austin Mike hit the nail on the head about "Why" this type of thing should be left for the test/assembly labs, or professionals who do it right. Doing it yourself is typically the bastion of geeks who want to wallow in minutiae until they get it right, then move on to the next tech challenge. I say don't be a "tweaker", be a "user" and buy built and ready to run if you want to use computers instead of mess with them ;-)

Sandoz and others who properly research compatability upfront and confirm "that" this stuff will work together (and exactly "how" it will work together) before parts choice and purchase are even done "and" then have the tech chops to fix the niggling issues that occur on build are the only sort of private parties you want doing a build.

The build I did a coupple years back for our rental AVID-Media system (Dual Xeon and Ultra-SCSI based rack mount box) was done with the help a local tech consultant for a commercial video studio who let me duplicate a custom system he had sorted out painfully a year earlier and was sucessfully running in a half dozen edit suites already. I bought according too a specific vendor/parts list and it went together and came up first time. It needed an initial visit from my buddy to tweak the BIOS for performance, but it ran fine from the get-out.

I have always been a fan of Dell towers for pre-configured systems, but thats because of their support capability and their reputation for making sure their higher end systems actually work when the head out the door.

I would not hesitate to give Sandoz a blank check and wait for a box if I wanted something that was totally custom absolutely screamed and was bulletproofed for 24/7 longterm robustness. He is dead on about PS ratings and the need to over=spec stuff if you are gonna' crank on a system. I run video systems that go 24/7 (almost all Mac) and they quite often chug on a rendering for 24-36 hours at a pass and do that over and over and over...

[AustinMike]

Are you telling me I should of got a Dell?

I can't honestly say that I'd recommend any one mass manufacturer exclusively. I've bought Dells before (worked there for 3 years in server and storage development as well), but that was based on system specifications. Being in the test business, I usually have a good feel for the hardware they are tossing in the case. I've had issues on some systems, none on others. I can say that I have gotten Dell support to address the problems when I've encountered them. Not a commercial for them, just my experience since you asked - no brand loyalty here. My current systems are put together by a builder out in CA, who has done me right on building to my specifications. He does a burn-in check before shipping. PM me if you'd like contact info. When I get a new system from anyone, I also wipe it clean, install the OS fresh myself, and run a few test programs that beat the crap out of it for a few days.

I know a lot of folks, myself included, who try doing their own builds out of frustration with the brand name systems on the market. My point was that it's not always that easy. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't, well, you built it, so you're your own support. Unless you know for a fact that the components you selected interoperate together, you could build an incompatiblity nightmare. Believe me, I see popular top brand components that work OK on their own cause a system to puke in certain combinations with other hardware. Hopefully in your case, this is as simple as a flakey DIMM that you can hopefully exchange.

Good luck!

[chuckbradley]

Well on the one good memorystick it ran a 2 1/2 hour stress test just fine. No errors.

I assume OCZ will replace the bad one.

After this experience there is no way I will let this education go to waste. We will continue to build our own computers but I will listen to Austins pick on parts next time. I assumed the Intel MB would work better with the Intel Processor. My error.

[Putty]

Asus P5N-E-SLI seems to work well with the Intel CPU, although the north and south bridge have passive cooling, and if hes into overclocking, he will have to actively cool those bridges. Good enthusiast board, that performs on par with the high end ($) nvidia 680 chipset. The 650 chipset seems to be bugless so far. Wait for the revision 2 boards and they may correct the bridge cooling. It will also be able to handle the quad cores coming from intel. with the 45 nm process'(possibly). The P5N only has the 8x-8x SLI but since you dont use SLI, no loss. Remember, for games the CPU no longers determines how the games run, as they are now GPU dependent. There is a CPU scaling white paper if your interested....NOT!

Oh, OCZ is awesome at replacement. Lifetime warranty on their stuff. Ask them, they might be able to determine how it fried or if it came fried. I fried my PS and they sent me a new one, no charge even though I screwed it up. SHAZAM!

Edited January 15, 2007 by Sandoz

[AustinMike]

Well on the one good memorystick it ran a 2 1/2 hour stress test just fine. No errors.

I assumed the Intel MB would work better with the Intel Processor. My error.

Awesome! Hopefully that's the only problem and you can get it swapped out. At least the problem was readily apparent. It's the "silent" ones that are scarier to me. I've seen a number of top selling components that trash data when subjected to rudimentary data integrity tests!

I don't think there's any problem at all with the MB, Chuck. I would stay with an Intel board myself (some of 'em anyway.) Granted, I work primarily with server class systems, but everybody's got bugs here and there and I generally see Intel taking more interest in fixing problems than other vendors. Sadly, ever decreasing time to market leads to shortened test cycles though! Ship it now, fix it later.

[XRe]

I bought a packard bell and had all kinds of problems with it.

Well... there was your problem... The PBs were always big big time POSs... A couple of companies that I worked for at different points had bought them and they were all crap - just cheap crap, which is why they kept buying them... There's only a couple of brands that are worth a snot at all, actually, it would seem....

[Austin Bradley]

Now if I was to buy a built system who has the best product?

Austin Mike hit the nail on the head about "Why" this type of thing should be left for the test/assembly labs, or professionals who do it right. Doing it yourself is typically the bastion of geeks who want to wallow in minutiae until they get it right, then move on to the next tech challenge. I say don't be a "tweaker", be a "user" and buy built and ready to run if you want to use computers instead of mess with them ;-)

Sandoz and others who properly research compatability upfront and confirm "that" this stuff will work together (and exactly "how" it will work together) before parts choice and purchase are even done "and" then have the tech chops to fix the niggling issues that occur on build are the only sort of private parties you want doing a build.

The build I did a coupple years back for our rental AVID-Media system (Dual Xeon and Ultra-SCSI based rack mount box) was done with the help a local tech consultant for a commercial video studio who let me duplicate a custom system he had sorted out painfully a year earlier and was sucessfully running in a half dozen edit suites already. I bought according too a specific vendor/parts list and it went together and came up first time. It needed an initial visit from my buddy to tweak the BIOS for performance, but it ran fine from the get-out.

I have always been a fan of Dell towers for pre-configured systems, but thats because of their support capability and their reputation for making sure their higher end systems actually work when the head out the door.

I would not hesitate to give Sandoz a blank check and wait for a box if I wanted something that was totally custom absolutely screamed and was bulletproofed for 24/7 longterm robustness. He is dead on about PS ratings and the need to over=spec stuff if you are gonna' crank on a system. I run video systems that go 24/7 (almost all Mac) and they quite often chug on a rendering for 24-36 hours at a pass and do that over and over and over...

You know I did do research on the compatibility of the system I put together and I do know how to build them. It turned out that it has just been a bad DIMM. Ive seen all kinds of pre-configured systems screwed up. Toshibas, Dells for sure, HP, PB, IBM, wait...did i say Dells. All the prebuilt systems come hit or miss. And if they miss its usually big time, Ive seen them so screwed up no matter what I did or some of my big time geekier friends could do to fix them. So I dont think mass manufacturers are the best choice. My first computer I built myself ran from the get go and it has not locked up ONCE in the year its been running. And this computer even though Sandoz, AustinMike, and I beat the hell outta ourselves (over somehting I couldnt control anyway) got it running good. In the end, if you want a better computer without cheap ass stuff in it, you should build it yourself or you let a good custom builder do it, not a mass manufactuer.

Now on a lighter note..... who makes the best laptop?

Edited January 16, 2007 by Austin Bradley

[Austin Bradley]

Also,

Sandoz and AustinMike thank you all especially for helping me out with the computer. Thanks to everyone else who put in some constructive criticism too.

[AustinMike]

Glad things are working now and I was happy to help with the troubleshooting process. I don't usually like to mess with computers outside of work, but it was nice to have a chance to help out you and Chuck since he's so generous in his support of our sport. I don't think anyone was implying that you didn't know what you were doing, Austin, or that you didn't properly research the components selected. Sometimes system builds just don't work out as well as you'd like and can be a huge drain on time and money. Certainly not trying to imply that mass manufacturing always produces a better product, but good support goes a long way. Although I know my way around systems with the best of them, I'd still rather pick up a phone (preferably not to India) and tell the manufacturer/builder that there is a problem than to waste my time. Most of the time I go through a builder who puts it together and does the burn in for me so I'm reasonably sure it works out of the box. Sounds like Sandoz is in that business too. A good system builder can be as prized as a good gunsmith in my book.

Computers...they're cool when they work and make your life a living hell when they don't!

Laptops...I ain't touchin' that one! All the problems of a big system crammed into a compact and more combustible package!

[George]

+1 to Mikes read of what I am trying to get across.

I believe my time is worth way more than the $10/hour you have to value it at that (or less) if you want do-it-yourself stuff to not cost more than buying built does.

Remember, if you are in "business", time is also money too and should not be spent profligately ;-)

[chuckbradley]

His last one went so smooth he agreed to build this one for 100.00. He figures he is getting about 3.00 an hour on this one

Still not bad to get paid to learn though.

[George]

Still not bad to get paid to learn though.

OJT is some of the bext learnin' ya' can get :-)

His last one went so smooth he agreed to build this one for 100.00. He figures he is getting about 3.00 an hour on this one

Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you

Work like this oughta' be in the $50-75/hr range if you are doing it for real. Being reliable, dependable and efficient is what keeps your customers, as you probably well know ;-)