My Revo Went Out Of Timing

[RodeoClown]

On shots where I pull the trigger slowly, the timing is now late. I got hit with lead twice and then a fellow shooter told me that it might be because it is out of timing and to check the forcing cone. It had lead marks on it. If I pull the trigger fast enough, the cylinder has enough momentum and the cylinder stop engages in time and everything is fine, but like I said, when I pull the trigger slowly is when the problem occurs. I don't want to send the gun to a smith because it takes them so long to send it back. Could you guys please tell me what I have to do to get the gun back into timing?

~Julian

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

remove the yoke, remove the cylinder from the yoke, clean and lubricate the barrel of the yoke. Replace the yoke onto the cylinder, spin it to spread the lubricant, remove it again, clean it off, re-lubricate, repeat until it spins free on the yoke. Reinstall and shoot it.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[RodeoClown]

remove the yoke, remove the cylinder from the yoke, clean and lubricate the barrel of the yoke. Replace the yoke onto the cylinder, spin it to spread the lubricant, remove it again, clean it off, re-lubricate, repeat until it spins free on the yoke. Reinstall and shoot it.

Thanks for the reply!

I did that. But the problem I had before still remains: When I pull the trigger slowly, there's supposed to be that second click, meaning the cylnder stop is engaged, and on most charge holes it's not there. When the hammer falls, the cylinder still turns just that extra bit before engaging. I think that's how part of the bullet hit the forcing cone and splattered back at me.

What should I do now?

[Carmoney]

Rodeoclown, unless you are pretty familiar with the intricacies of how S&W revolvers function, you might want to find somebody else to do it.

Generally, the project involves fitting an oversize (i.e. thicker) hand, although there are other methods that are sometimes used, and it's a pretty delicate operation until you've done a few.

If you want to try it, go to smith-wessonforum.com and do a search on "timing" and "carry up" on the 'smithing subforum and there will be a ton of information there you can sift through.

This is a fairly common problem with S&W revolvers.

[RodeoClown]

I didn't do too well on the Smith and Wesson website (They didn't accept my e-mail address, so I couldn't become a member), so I'm back here ...

I'd like to give it a try to time the gun myself. It seems a hand costs less than fifteen dollars, so even if I mess it up a couple of times, at leastif it happens again, I'll know how to fix it. I've done my action job myself, so I have a little bit of an idea of what goes on inside a revolver. Might somebody be willing to walk me through as to what to do?

[Northern Xtreme]

I think you can actually bend the hand a little at the tip to get it to engage the star sooner and push it further. That is a tuning thing that one of my past revolver smiths did to fix a slightly out of time gun for me in the past.

Have you done a complete dissassembly and cleaning?

Perhaps there is some crud somewhere causing things to not engage properly or a broken spring.

Especially check the bolt area, sometimes that spring is hard to get lined up straight and its pretty small so if a few coils broke off it maybe its sluggish.

[Steve Moneypenny]

Thanks for the info and great links. I've always wondered what caused this, etc.

Good luck in getting your revo working perfectly!

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I didn't do too well on the Smith and Wesson website (They didn't accept my e-mail address, so I couldn't become a member), so I'm back here ...

I'd like to give it a try to time the gun myself. It seems a hand costs less than fifteen dollars, so even if I mess it up a couple of times, at leastif it happens again, I'll know how to fix it. I've done my action job myself, so I have a little bit of an idea of what goes on inside a revolver. Might somebody be willing to walk me through as to what to do?

Next you want to take a micrometer and measure the thickness of the point of the hand. Call S&W and tell them what it is and order a hand a little thicker. Let them decide what you need. When you get the hand, install it and see how it works. If it is only a couple thousandths over it will probably be fine. If too thick, you can stone the thickness very carefully on the side that has no pins and prevent fitting ratchets. Remember, it is the top point/hook of the hand that is what you are concerned with.

Send me an e mail I can send pictures.

Editing to add, you should always check for DCU in SA mode with a cylinder full of properly weighted dummy rounds. Barrel on bench, butt on bench, Top strap facing up. Draw hammer back slowly and see what happens. Pulling slowly DA is not a good indicator.

Edited December 10, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Carmoney]

I think you can actually bend the hand a little at the tip to get it to engage the star sooner and push it further. That is a tuning thing that one of my past revolver smiths did to fix a slightly out of time gun for me in the past.

Bending the hand is a valid technique, but one of the more difficult ways to handle the problem. I've done it probably a dozen times in the past, usually when I need (or want) to get the gun fixed in the middle of the night and I'm all out of oversize hands. (I live only an hour from Brownells, but they close at 4:30 p.m.)

The hand goes nose-down in the vise (no leather or rubber vise pads, must use lead pads or none at all with smooth jaws), heat the middle of the hand with a torch until it's cherry red, then very gently tap it with a hammer to instill a slight bend that will move the hand tip just a bit to the left when its installed back in the gun. Then quench (I spray it with cold brake cleaner) until you can handle it, and give it a try in the gun.

The biggest risk of doing this is breaking the hand if you don't get it hot enough. If you try to bend a hand without heat you will break it.

[aerosigns]

Rodeo,

Does the cylinder not carry up on all charge holes or only a few?

If you should order a new hand, you will need to also order the pin that retains the torsion spring. The hands do not come with that pin installed. I forget where I learned that at.

[RodeoClown]

Next you want to take a micrometer and measure the thickness of the point of the hand. Call S&W and tell them what it is and order a hand a little thicker. Let them decide what you need. When you get the hand, install it and see how it works. If it is only a couple thousandths over it will probably be fine. If too thick, you can stone the thickness very carefully on the side that has no pins and prevent fitting ratchets. Remember, it is the top point/hook of the hand that is what you are concerned with.

Send me an e mail I can send pictures.

Editing to add, you should always check for DCU in SA mode with a cylinder full of properly weighted dummy rounds. Barrel on bench, butt on bench, Top strap facing up. Draw hammer back slowly and see what happens. Pulling slowly DA is not a good indicator.

Everybody thanks for their input!

I think I'd like to try the above suggestion. I measured the thickness of the hand (90 thousands), will call S&W tomorrow, and order a hand just a little bit thicker. Also, I tested several of my revolvers in SA mode and all of them were late on several charge holes, though not all of them. I also tried to understand how timing works, so I watched the hand with the side plate off as I pulled the trigger. It seems as the hand pushes the ratchet up, it gets pushed to the right against the right side of the window frame. So, if I had a slightly thicker hand, it would push the cylinder over just a little bit quicker putting the gun back into timing. Did I understand that right? But on the other hand, if the hand were too thick it would start hanging up on the ratchet, right?

Also, somebody mentioned something about broken springs. The way I understand it from watching the hand, there are no springs involved in the timing of the gun. Or are there?

Again, thanks for all the input.

[Carmoney]

It seems as the hand pushes the ratchet up, it gets pushed to the right against the right side of the window frame. So, if I had a slightly thicker hand, it would push the cylinder over just a little bit quicker putting the gun back into timing. Did I understand that right?

Exactly. Correct timing (or carry-up, as the factory calls it) is largely controlled by the thickness of the hand.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Sounds like you want a 6 thousandths over hand. Hopefully they will mic one for you. Also, the spring mentioned is inside the trigger. The pin mentioned is a torsion pin on the hand. I have never had to order one since it takes a setting tool to install it properly.

Good luck,

Edited December 11, 2006 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Schutzenmeister]

I had a similar problem with my 625 a couple of years ago. What everyone is telling you is totally possible ... but it wasn't the main problem with my gun.

I was shooting with Jerry M at his place in LA one afternoon and the gun started giving me the exact problem you describe. I had Jerry shoot it for a while and he finally figured out wht my problem was.

Remember, the hand makes contact with 6 small keys on the back side of the yoke to rotate the cylinder. The problem on my gun was that the keys were badly worn causing the hand to slide off to the side as you describe. This was leading to under-rotation and all the problems you note.

I sent the gun to S&W (with a hand-written note from JM ... THANKS!) describing the problem. It took them about 2 months to work it through the que in their shop, but they replaced the cylinder & yoke assembly, put in a new hand, cleaned everything up and returned the gun to me. The best part was that the only thing it cost me was shipping the gun to them and doing without it for a couple of months. (I even told them I had had the gun for several years and had purchased it used when I got it ... Now THAT'S customer service!!!) I couldn't be happier!

Hope all goes well in your repair efforts ...

[Carmoney]

Kinda typical of S&W's service. They care. They try. But they don't know how to do much other than keep replacing parts until they think the problem is gone.

[Waltermitty]

Kinda typical of S&W's service. They care. They try. But they don't know how to do much other than keep replacing parts until they think the problem is gone.

Kinda sounds like me now that you mention it.

I have been struggling with the same issue on my high-mileage "A" gun. It was getting progressively later on the carry up. I bought an oversized hand and was trying to solve the problem that way. My latest effort has been to replace the star and the old hand. Everything ran very well this past weekend with a *much* earlier lockup, so I'm cautiously declaring victory.

[bountyhunter]

On shots where I pull the trigger slowly, the timing is now late. I got hit with lead twice and then a fellow shooter told me that it might be because it is out of timing and to check the forcing cone. It had lead marks on it. If I pull the trigger fast enough, the cylinder has enough momentum and the cylinder stop engages in time and everything is fine, but like I said, when I pull the trigger slowly is when the problem occurs. I don't want to send the gun to a smith because it takes them so long to send it back. Could you guys please tell me what I have to do to get the gun back into timing?

~Julian

If it happened 'suddenly" and is doing it on more than one cylinder tube, you probably bent the yoke (crane) tube.

If it came on gradually, you need at least to install a wider hand, maybe also a new star to fix it. Gunsmith only operation, not a drop in part.

I think you can actually bend the hand a little at the tip to get it to engage the star sooner and push it further.

Only if you heat the metal. It is very brittle. After heating, it will be softer than original.

I think I'd like to try the above suggestion. I measured the thickness of the hand (90 thousands), will call S&W tomorrow, and order a hand just a little bit thicker.

I called SW a while back and they told me they no longer stocked wide parts (hands and cylinder stops) so I had to go to Numrich to get them.

IIRC, the last "wide" hand I got from them measured about 0.100" or so.

[Carmoney]

So far I've never encountered an N-frame I couldn't time up without replacing the extractor star. There may have been times when that route might have been easier, but since the stars are not generally available for aftermarket purchase, I have always found ways to fit up oversize hands to get the guns back in time.

If need be, the Power Custom aftermarket hand is oversize in every dimension. It can almost always be made to work, although it's so big it can be quite time-consuming to fit the dang thing.

[Carlos]

Kinda typical of S&W's service. They care. They try. But they don't know how to do much other than keep replacing parts until they think the problem is gone.

Kinda sounds like me now that you mention it.

I have been struggling with the same issue on my high-mileage "A" gun. It was getting progressively later on the carry up. I bought an oversized hand and was trying to solve the problem that way. My latest effort has been to replace the star and the old hand. Everything ran very well this past weekend with a *much* earlier lockup, so I'm cautiously declaring victory.

Sadly have to agree. My brother's Model 19 started spitting jacket material during a pin shoot in 1999. Returned it w/ a kind note. They repaired it - but cherged my brother $80 in parts labor (believe a hand was replaced). Gun was left on the front porch in Baltimore city (can't recall if S&W used UPS, FED Ex or USPS back then).

Fixed? Nope. 2nd cylinder of JHPs through the gun sent one big crescent-shaped sliver of jacket material backwards into my thumb and it started bleeding all over. ANother piece hit a bystander in the forehead & left a black mark. Back it went - w/ a slighty less kind note.

This time, they did not charge for the repair. Gun worked great! BUT, they replaced the frame w/one that had a different serial number - which would have been just fine except that my brother lived in California at the time. Thank God he moved.

Hopefully, customer service repairs have improved since the company is back in U.S. hands & both Julie and Jerry are on S&W's payroll, albeit in a different department.

D.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Carlos

[RodeoClown]

Again, thanks everybody for their input. Today, I spoke to customer service at S&W and they will send me a regular sized hand. My hand was 90 thousands, the hand they will send me is 94 thousands, an oversized hand is 98 thousands. They told me that a regular sized hand should do the job. Based on what I read, I also checked the extractor star, but it doesn't seem to have too much wear on it, so I have a feeling that just fitting the hand should do it. I'll let you guys know what happens when I get it back. Again, thanks everybody.