Uspsa 3 Gun / Muti-gun Poll Was Disappointing

[AK74]

When I saw that USPSA was conducting a 3 Gun / Muti-Gun poll I was hopeful that it could be used to resolve some of the issues we have locally between clubs and get every one on the same sheet of music, But after completing the poll I was just disappointed.

Like most USPSA pistol shooters, most 3-Gun shooters shoot mostly local club matches, yet this poll that covered air travel in detail ignored all the important issues facing local matches.

IMHO if USPSA wants the big matches to use USPSA rules they need to work to get the local matches to use them first.

The biggest issue on the local level is scoring, we have tripled the number of clubs holding 3 gun matches locally (Central Florida) in the last few years but each club uses its own scoring system ( and none use IPSC scoring). Addressing this one issue would turn clubs that for the most part already use IPSC targets, USPSA rules and Divisions from unofficial IPSC style matches into true USPSA 3-Gun matches.

To do this we need a simple, fast, scoring system. A modified version of IPSC scoring is not going to fly on the local level; we need to look at the scoring systems used by the outlaw 3-Gun matches.

Also ignored in the poll were Heavy metal / He-Man division. Recognized and growing at most local clubs one set of common rules are needed; this is were USPSA could take the lead and do some good.

Finally using your IPSC pistol classification for shooting 3-Gun dose not work well, as 3-Gun grows this will need to be addressed, soon.

I have used the term 3-Gun is describe matches that using the USPSA definition are all Muti-Gun matches, because no one locally cares who wins the pistol, shotgun or rifle part of the match.

IMO the term Muti Gun is artificial and just silly, in twenty years of shooting local 3-Guns matches I now find out that I have been shooting Multi-Gun.

Edited November 21, 2006 by AK74

[Jim Norman]

Having run a fairly successful multi-gun match for about 6 years, I would like to address some of the issues presented.

Scoring: Straight time, plus penalties is problematic. It fails to address people that game a potentially long stage by winging two shots at a 300 yard target and moving on. USPSA scoring does a bit better. There needs to be and I think there is the ability to assign a higher value to the distant targets.

The San Angelo system works. You need to educate the shooters and staff, but it really isn't that hard to do. You enter anyone that has a major gun as major and add a penalty point for each minor hit. Example is a major pistol and a minor rifle. All A hits is not a problem. For each B-C-D hit you add a single penalty point in EZWin and the proper points are assigned.

While I would champion a single change to all stages being equal, ie., 100 points, after doing some initial playing with the scores, it doesn't make a big difference.

Heavy Metal is a bit problematic, Many clubs don't have rifle steel that will take repeated hits from a 30-06/308. Many clubs don't have 300-500 yard ranges. We solve this in in this manner, we eliminate rifle steel. Only engage steel with pistol or shot.

If your club has the range and the steel, you can shoot steel with rifle, if not, then no problem, use a target exchange scoring system. Make up multiple sets of targets, don;t score and tape in lace, send a runner on the club ATV or jeep down to pick-up the shot targets and place fresh ones in the stands. Takes less time than moving the whole group down range and discussing targets while holding up the match.

Biggest problem with running a multi-gun match in my opinion is designing the match to flow correctly. You have to keep the stage times relatively even or you are screwed.

As to the name Multi-Gun, vs Three-Gun, I agree, to me there are 3-gun matches (USPSA Calls them Multi-Gun) and there are 3-Gun Tournaments. Three separate matches shot with one gun each.

Jim

[itento]

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Like most USPSA pistol shooters, most 3-Gun shooters shoot mostly local club matches, yet this poll that covered air travel in detail ignored all the important issues facing local matches.

Why don't people shoot in bigger (higher level) matches? It's hard for the average working man to come up with the $$$ and time to travel across the country for a match. I'd really like to shoot the Multigun Nationals but for personal reasons just can't get to Oregon. In fact, I'd love to shoot SMM3, Iron Man, and others out West and in the North but its just too far. We shot 5 local multigun matches and I shot the Area 6 3-Gun and will shoot the Ft. Benning 3-Gun.

The biggest issue on the local level is scoring

I don't completely agree with this. I personally find the San Angelo system and EZ Win Score meets our local needs for multigun with a little work, though I would like to see some improvements. Need a way to register He-man class. We usually don't run pure 3-gun matches but they are much harder to score in EZ Win since once you choose Pistol, you can no longer select rifle or shotgun for the next stage description. I'm shooting the Ft Benning Match which will use time plus system of scoring. Don't know that its any better but I do know I'll be shooting Minor loads instead of Major.

IMHO if USPSA wants the big matches to use USPSA rules they need to work to get the local matches to use them first.

We do.

Also ignored in the poll were Heavy metal / He-Man division. Recognized and growing at most local clubs one set of common rules are needed; this is were USPSA could take the lead and do some good.

+1.

Finally using your IPSC pistol classification for shooting 3-Gun dose not work well, as 3-Gun grows this will need to be addressed, soon.

Discussed in another thread. I think the concensus was to leave classifications out of multigun and go head-to-head in Division. After all, if you shoot 85% of the Division high score/hit factor, you know where you stand. No need for a complicated classification system.

[D.Hayden]

It seemd the 'poll' was more marketing information than anything else. Why else do they want to know if you own a house, or how much money you make?

I'll go to any 3 Gun match, if it's USPSA or not, doesn't matter to me. The reputation of the match, or who's putting it on is more important.

[wgnoyes]

...I personally find the San Angelo system and EZ Win Score meets our local needs for multigun with a little work, though I would like to see some improvements. Need a way to register He-man class.

The biggest issue to me IS scoring, as in there is no software support for san angelo. San Angelo is MUCH harder to score than a 3-gun tournament because of that, but everyone knows how I feel about that, so I won't go further into it. Having a heavy metal division in ezws would not be a difficult change, but since I don't manage and maintain the source code, I can't make that change, either.

We usually don't run pure 3-gun matches but they are much harder to score in EZ Win since once you choose Pistol, you can no longer select rifle or shotgun for the next stage description.

What do you mean exactly? I just got finished scoring the Area 6 3-Gun tournament, and you can indeed jump from pistol to rifle to shotgun to enter scores; I did it all weekend long. I therefore assume you mean something different, so I'd like to know what.

[George]

Yes, it was a marketing/advertiser oriented surver (aren't they all).

We use USPSA rules and scoring with some simplification workarounds of our own. If a club already uses EZ-Winscore and runs USPSA sanctioned matches, they already know how to do what they need to do.

[itento]

Bill,

What do you mean exactly? I just got finished scoring the Area 6 3-Gun tournament, and you can indeed jump from pistol to rifle to shotgun to enter scores; I did it all weekend long. I therefore assume you mean something different, so I'd like to know what.

I think I figured it out (just name the rifle and shotgun matches). Last month was the first time we have run a pure 3-gun match and I just didn't take the time to research it. BTW- good job at Anniston!! Thanks.

[uscbigdawg]

I've said it on here before, it's the scoring and always will be. Time plus penalties works and you can acknowledge major and minor quite easily. Basically in the same way San Angelo scoring is done.

The biggest benefit is no hit factor. The reason is simply that given a Time+ "score" a shooter immediately knows how they stack up against their buddy and in the match rather than having to calculate a hit factor. It's easy in the scoring shed with a computer, pain in the butt while you're BS'ing between stages (yeah I have a spreadsheet already setup on a PDA).

Just my $0.02.

Rich

P.S. I'd have participated in the survey if I could get an issue of Front Sight.

[cmzneb]

Why don't people shoot in bigger (higher level) matches? It's hard for the average working man to come up with the $$$ and time to travel across the country for a match.

+1 on this!!!!!

If these bigger matches would quit charging such ridiculous entry fees...

I will just stick with the local matches. They are just as fun, and cost 20 times less.

Edited November 21, 2006 by cmzneb