Sig 556

[Chriss Grube]

You might want to check your facts, lots of you damn jerseyites have AR's there's even a couple here on BE.

[Cactustactical]

Stopped at the Sig Arms booth while at the SHOT Show. As expected, they devoted a great deal of attention to the new Sig 556. They started shipping to their earliest orders last month and plan to have all pre orders taken care of by April or so.

Given the negativity about the rifle here recently, I gathered some specs on it. There are 2 versions shipping currently: the 556 and the 556 Swat. The Swat model will feature a flat top Picatinny rail and a forearm quad rail and is $500 more.

The following specs come from the 2007 Sig Arms Product Portfolio available at the Show:

Sig 556 Sig 556 Swat

Overal length: 36.5 36.5

Length w/ stock folded: 33 33

Barrel length: 16 16

Rifling: 1 in 7 1 in 7

Weight w/o mag: 6.8 lbs 6.8 lbs

MSRP: $1299 $1799

I also took some camera pics, since what I was seeing did not jib with some of the recent comments. The first photo shows a standard 2 x 3.5 inch business card inserted into the ejection port ending approximately at the center of the barrel bore. The top of the rail is between 1.5 and 2 inches from the center of the bore. Picture 2 shows a closeup of the receiver area with the bolt closed. Picture 3 shows a 556 on the display wall. The guns displayed had the rail no higher and comparable to most flat top AR's.

The gun was light and pointed well. The trigger was stiff, the safety is amibidextrous and the rifle takes standard AR magazines. The gun is well built, has good manufacturer support and will be fun to shoot.

Will it work out of the box in competition? Who knows, but if Sig is smart, they will sponsor a ranked shooter quickly who will win some matches with it. For the price, Sig is going to sell a lot of rifles.

Michael Bane has some nice videos of the rifle being shot, broken down and generally fondled at his blog: Michael Banes Blog.

Also took a look at the Magpul Masada, their new entry into the gas piston rifle world. Nice rifle, it is going to sell for about $1500, although from what they said, it will be a while before it ships.

I want one of both for my personal collection. We signed up as a Sig dealer at the Show, they had too many nice new guns not to.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Cactustactical

[EricW]

Gee, so Sig put the barrel slightly under the centerline of the stock, thus negating a lot of muzzle flip.

Yup, I have to agree the Sig 556 will be a totally uncompetitive POS with no known utility whatsoever. <sigh>

[George]

The top of the rail is between 1.5 and 2 inches from the center of the bore.

Hmmmm! Just pulled my CTR-02 outa' the safe and checked with a caliper. It's centerline of bore to "Top" of rail = 1.25". Older Eagle Arms flatop, centerline of bore to "Top" of rail = 1.35".

That makes it at least .5" and possibly a full 1.0"+ more POI/POA offset if the business card hasn't been recently calibrated.

Still gonna' be in Tulsa with my AR and my lunch money ;-)

[Chuck Anderson]

I got a chance to shoot one at the Media day before the show started. Pretty unremarkable. Not bad, not good, just didn't blow me away. The one thing I did notice is the mag release is further forward than on the AR type guns. I couldn't reach it without substantially changing my grip. Not as bad as an H&K94 but still too far for me.

[Carlos]

That weight is consistent w/ many configurations of the AR. Sig's website lists the 556 barrel as "cold hammer forged" and import restrictions mean it has to have been made in Exeter, NH (not Switzerland or Germany). Quite an accomplishment on Sig's part to get these things built and out to the public.

It is good to have options & competition in the 3gun equipment world. Will it be competitive? Remains to be seen.

[Cactustactical]

That makes it at least .5" and possibly a full 1.0"+ more POI/POA offset if the business card hasn't been recently calibrated.

George,

to stop your creative mathematics, I put a ruler to the card I used at the Show and measured the mark on the business card. The top of the rail is almost exactly 1.5 inches from the center bore, comparable to most AR flat top platforms.

If you don't like the gun, that's your choice. I would suggest that you actually see, touch and shoot one before you become so vocally negative.

I support Sig Arms for their business decision to spend a whole lot of money creating something different for the general public. That is a business attitude I support and applaud. Suitability out of the box? who knows, but as I said, if Sig is smart, they will sponsor one of the ranked shooters, he will continue to win no matter what he shoots and all of a sudden, Sig will sell a lot more guns.

I also like Magpul's new rifle, a lot more than the 556 because it is modular and adaptive. The 556 is closer to market, so I will probably buy one of those first. Someof us collect and shoot rifles for more applications than 3 gun. The gas piston products are here to stay, so it is better to look with an unbiased eye.

[Religious Shooter]

It looks cool. If I could have one... I still don't know if I would get one.

From the video it looks like while there isn't much muzzle flip. But it is moving Michael B back pretty good. Either his technique isn't so hot or the gun will need a comp and maybe a lightened carrier and piston to compete with the current AR set-ups.

Barrel also looks like it is pencil-thin style. Getting a thicker barrel will of course increase the weight. Barrel availability?

[George]

The question asked here was about 3gun usage of this here gun (re-read the thread ifn'ya missed that detail).

In your fust' post, ya stated that it was between 1.5 and 2 inches (re-read and see), not 1.5 eggs-ackerly and my reply was based on that piece of data. I reserve the right to change my mind at a moments notice, when given NEW information (Quote from Tom Peters) ;-)

BTW, was that centerline of bore, or "top of bbl" you measured Cactus? After perusing the photos close-up, that biz card looks like it's not deep enough in the gun to be at the bore center by a good bit. The full length image puts the bore center at the top of the first casting bulge on the side of the magwell. Your biz card is not that far down in the receiver as I can see. Looks like about a half inch shy of the bbl center to me, according to your images!

[Cactustactical]

Barrel also looks like it is pencil-thin style. Getting a thicker barrel will of course increase the weight. Barrel availability?

The barrel on the various samples were fairly thin, definitely not HB configuration. The literature does not offer barrel choices at this point. I would guess as they ramp up, more will become available, but that is my guess at this point as I did not speak of barrel options to the 3 different Sig employees I spoke to. I can bring it up in future talks as these actually come closer to shipping to us.

I would think a comp would improve the gun quite a bit. I won't hazard an opinion on Bane's technique. He could probably address your question better than I can.

[Cactustactical]

In your fust' post, ya stated that it was between 1.5 and 2 inches (re-read and see), not 1.5 eggs-ackerly and my reply was based on that piece of data. I reserve the right to change my mind at a moments notice, when given NEW information (Quote from Tom Peters) ;-)

You are exactly right when I mentioned "between 1.5 and 2 inches yesterday". That is why I spoke of your creative math when you wrote "possibly a full 1.0"+ more POI/POA offset".

The card was in the receiver chamber inline with the approximate center of the barrel. It would help if you are able to hold one of these rifles at some point in the future so the design becomes clearer to you.

I enjoy trying out new industry products and have accepted the fact that not everything is 100% out of the box. I would hope that others had the same perspective, but respect it when some don't.

It is clear now that you have some sort of axe to grind with this rifle. Not sure why, but I am not going to engage in any more debate with you on this rifle. It does not really serve any useful purpose from my end.

Have a good day.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Cactustactical

[George]

The rifle in your pictures is certainly not the same rifle my earlier photo examinations and POI/POA offset concerns were based on. I actually enlarged the attached image and scaled it out to get the inch+ I previously estimated the increase in POI/POA offset from an AR was.

Here is a JPEG of the rifle SIG shows on THEIR website.

They offer no options for a substantially lower rail as shown in YOUR photo of the 556.

Nope, not the same rifle at all! Apples/Oranges, new info, my mind can change as I am NOT closed-minded just fact-minded. I do not have an axe to grind and only call things as I see them.

I am pretty sure I have been accurate in my assessment and as stated earlier by the starter of this thread, the intent of this thread was to elicit opinions on this rifles suitability for competition.

No one has shot this rifle in competition YET! The top competitors who have shot it in testing have pretty much agreed with the points I brought up. That's pretty much it as far as this rifle goes until it gets brought to a large match by someone with some chops and we see what it can do in an actual racing situation.

Now our debate on the 556's suitability for competition is done ;-)

[EricW]

One of the big turn-offs on the AR platform is that they *can* be fussy creatures at times. Maybe the Sig rifle doesn't do anything earth-shatteringly better than an AR. But...if someone can go to the store and buy an off the shelf 223 that's 99.9999% reliable, that has to be a good thing.

I've got as big an axe to grind with Sig as anybody. I've actually been burned on Sig products. That said, if they think they have a rifle that's on par with the quality and accuracy of their centerfire pistols, more power to them. It would make me ecstatically happy to see new shooters at the range having immediate success with a Sig versus hours of frustration debugging a mystery-meat AR variant.

[smokshwn]

As in most magazine fed weapons the "fussiness" can usually be directly attributed to the little box o bullets. Considering all the subpar AR mags that have been manufactured over the years I doubt the SIG will be immune to a certain amount of "fussiness".

This coming from a guy who put the ultimate mystery meat AR together. DPMS low pro upper, Rock River bolt & carrier, used unknown brand free float tube, take off barrel from a Vulcan arms gun cut and turned by Wakal, F2 comp with a peel washer, unknown 4 rail gas block, and a complete bushmaster lower from another AR I have with an ACE Socom stock. Runs like a champ and actually shoots Wolf 62gr just a hair under MOA. I do run high quality mags though, so much for fussiness.