Conflicting Data And Conflicted Newbie Question

[chunger]

Hi,

I have a question about IMR 700X. I'm new to reloading and have been trying to absorb as much as possible from here to start out on the right foot. I have Zero 230 grain JHP's on the way. The gun is 5" 1911 single stack Kart barrel.

I'm looking for a ~850 fps utility load. . . clean burning, low flash, accurate.

I started looking into IMR 700X and have conflicting data

----------------------------------------------------

from Lee Modern Reloading 2nd edition:

230 grain jacketted bullet

IMR 700x starting:

4.5 grn - 693 fps

max:

5.0 grn - 770 fps - 17700 CUP - 1.260 min AOL

-------------------------------------------

from Midway loadmap .45 ACP volume 1

Sierra FMJ 230 grn

IMR 700X starting:

4.0 grn - 678 fps - 10500 PSI

max (red zone):

6.0 grn - 931 fps - 21000 PSI

Nosler and Winchester JHP were similar in this manual

---------------------------------------------

from Lyman #48 manual

IMR 700X 230 grain TMJ 1.275" AOL

3.6 grn - 667 fps - 11,200 CUP

max:

4.8 grn - 867 fps - 17,900 CUP

----------------------------------------------

OK. . . Lee tells me I can't even make 850 fps safely at all w/ this powder. Lyman tells me that for a similar charge as Lee's max, I get 100 fps more, and Midway tells me, "Go ahead, top it off .. . 20% more powder charge never hurt anyone."

Actually, they all tell me to start low and work up to any load carefully from starting loads and that I can blow myself up at any time, but it's enough to make a newbie very confused. I actually searched through postings here 'til I fell over from screen exhaustion and ended up buying Clays (wanted to experience the soft/smooth flavah everyone raves about) and Titegroup (also planning to load 9mm production and there was enough positive experience here for me to just get a keg and try it in .45 also mabe boil some eggs with my hot ejected brass).

Anyways, I was just sitting here getting confused and wondered if someone who's actually done this before can set me straight. There are so many powders out there it's daunting to just dive in. I've got enough to play with w/ the clays and the titegroup and figuring out proper loading setup/technique, but I'm still researching other mabe better options for a factory-like load. Most of the knowledge here seems to center around 100 fps slower.

-'Chung

Edited October 31, 2006 by chunger

[Guy Neill]

The differences in data reflect the differences in both components and test equipment. The data may also reflect the limits imposed by the developer.

The process of starting low and wroking up is importnat, because your components and gun are different still. This may sound intimidating, but the process is not all that fraught with peril.

The best data, normally, to start with, is that from the maker of the bullet you are using. There are, however, many bullets available for which the maker does not provide data. In this situation, try to find data compiled with a bullet as near the one you have as possible. That is to say, use data compiled with a jacketed bullet if your bullet is jacketed, a plated bullet, if your bullet is plated. Lead bullet data is much more interchangeable, assuming equal seating depths.

If you are lookin at multiple data sources, and you see such differences, the most prudent start is to go with the most conservative first (lowest). This is where a chronogrpah is a great help is determining what is happening with your gun and loads. Work through the data range in increments (say 0.3 to 0.5gr changes), looking for any problems at each level. If you reach the top level in the lowest series of loads, not seeing anything wrong or suspicious, continue into hte next load range, with the same incremental progression.

With the chronograph, you will be able to see how your gun and components are matching the published loads.

Never, ever, continue to escalate loads once you have seen signs of excessive pressure. These are shown in the various manuals.

I don't know if this clears any of the confusion, but please let me know if you have questions I can try to help with.

Guy

[Harmon]

230 grain bullets at 850 fps? you trying to duplicate ball ammo or duty ammo?

unless you have a bunch of 700x, i would try titegroup..and if your wanting to load ammo for uspsa/idpa CDP, clays is great.

in my experience, velocitys from my guns vs the load data is always off. but a lot depends on gun, barrel, bullet brass, primer...and everything else.

start low and check velocity with a chronograph

Harmon

[LPatterson]

The Midway LoadMap is not a very good source because they have a limited selection of powders & use their favorites. The first page of 230 grain bullets lists the test equipment & bullet types, their max OAL may not even work in your gun with some of the flatter nosed bullets.

[galt11]

I used to use 700x when I first started shooting, was taught by bullseye shooters, who love the stuff. The most accurate load for my Kimber was with 700x. However, no matter what quantity I used I would NOT call anything with 700x clean burning.

Adam

[chunger]

Hmmm. . . I guess it's back to the drawing board. . . no 700X. . .for JHP AOL according to the Lee manual, 850 FPS is also within reach of these:

power pistol - lots of flash?

universal

winchester super field

solo 1000

accurrate #2 or #5

Wonder if any of these stand out. . . back to searching.

[big_kahuna]

Hmmm. . . I guess it's back to the drawing board. . . no 700X. . .for JHP AOL according to the Lee manual, 850 FPS is also within reach of these:

power pistol - lots of flash?

universal

winchester super field

solo 1000

accurrate #2 or #5

Wonder if any of these stand out. . . back to searching.

Here are some powders that you might want to look at in your quest to get 850 FPS with a 230 JHP...

Hodgdon Longshot (Hodgdon powder data )

WSF ( Winchester Powder data )

IMR 800-X ( IMR powder data )

Longshot and WSF meter a little better, due to the spherical morphology of the granules. WSF seems a little more temperature sensitive; velocity may change INVERSELY to temperature so be careful. Longshot is new, so I don't have a lot of experience with it.

ETA:

+ 1 to Guy's comments. Chronograph and look for signs of pressure. The load books, web resources, and "tribal knowledge" passed by word of mouth are guidelines at best.

Personally, I don't load 45 ACP to 196 PF very often. 168-170 PF is satisfactory for most of my needs, and I have used clays/231/WST/WSF to good effect at those power levels. If I may ask, why do you need all that velocity?

Load safe,

bk

Edited November 4, 2006 by big_kahuna

[chunger]

Personally, I don't load 45 ACP to 196 PF very often. 168-170 PF is satisfactory for most of my needs, and I have used clays/231/WST/WSF to good effect at those power levels. If I may ask, why do you need all that velocity?

Load safe,

bk

Trying to figure out how to replicate the factory loads I've been shooting up until now. I will visit a chrono 1st thing. Can't replicate something if you don't know how fast the one you're trying to replicate is going

[alzo]

I also use Zero 230gr JHP. Two factory equivalent loads that work for me are:

6.2gr Vihtavuori N340 860fps

7.0gr Ramshot True Blue 847fps

I load to an OAL of 1.215", and crimp 0.469".

I plan to try a faster burn rate powder for this application as well....probably N320.

[TonyT]

I have used HS-700X for several years with the 185 gr. Star LSWCHP. Using 3.8 to 4.1 gr. of HS-700X, Rem 2 1/2 gives me 720 to 780 fps with outstanding accuracy in S&W945PC, Pardini GT-45, PO14-45 and SA Trophy Match.