Simple Production Division Pistol Rules

[ysued]

I think triggers should be left alone in the rules besides being included in "no external mods".

Who is going to be checking guns and have the knowledge to say a trigger is now "different"?

If Production was in fact a stock gun division, then it might be necessary, but the tungsten guide rods, melted Bomars, aftermarket barrels, etc pretty much means this isn't a stock gun division.

For folks actually wanting a bone stock gun division, then I think you should give up on Production and start politicing for a new division. If a 1911 Only division can get in on provisional status, then you should be able to get a division that makes sense. At that point Production can evolve into a DA/Striker Limited 10, which seems to be a direction a lot of members would like.

But if we start a new "Stock" Division, how long do you think it's going to take for some members to start pushing to allow "Minor Modifications" to the guns in order to make them "More Reliable"? What would we have? Another version of "Limited"!

I agree, Production is nothing close to Stock. At this time, any efforts to bring it back closer to Stock would be encountered with massive ressistance, due to all the major madifications done to some of the guns in the division. Let's just not make it any worse by allowing more modifications.

With the Impending new Rule Book, we have the best opportunity in years to clean up all the rules and clarify this division. Make all rules clear and easy to Understand and Enforce.

[JFD]

If you had a Stock division, no mods would be allowed besides a short list that makes common sense.

Who cares how the gun is finished? I'd say refinishing is allowed.

Grip tape should be allowed since it just sticks on. I look at it as a safety item for folks like me who can't shoot a Glock without regripping after every shot.

I don't know how to get around trigger jobs. If polishing and spring changes aren't allowed, then how to enforce it? If it can't be enforced locally, then it probably should be allowed. Sounds like the division is already sliding down the slippery slope doesn't it? Trigger jobs might just be a reality that can't be ignored in USPSA.

I'd go with those 3 allowable changes and call the equipment rules complete. Use an approved handgun list that originates with USPSA and can be traced back to a set of simple guidelines that I'm not qualified to list.

[GeorgeInNePa]

If you had a Stock division, no mods would be allowed besides a short list that makes common sense.

Who cares how the gun is finished? I'd say refinishing is allowed.

Grip tape should be allowed since it just sticks on. I look at it as a safety item for folks like me who can't shoot a Glock without regripping after every shot.

I don't know how to get around trigger jobs. If polishing and spring changes aren't allowed, then how to enforce it? If it can't be enforced locally, then it probably should be allowed. Sounds like the division is already sliding down the slippery slope doesn't it? Trigger jobs might just be a reality that can't be ignored in USPSA.

I'd go with those 3 allowable changes and call the equipment rules complete. Use an approved handgun list that originates with USPSA and can be traced back to a set of simple guidelines that I'm not qualified to list.

Sounds good, but you know, some of the nicest guns have the crappiest sights, would it be ok if we change those, pretty please.

Oh, and what about springs. I like the reduced power loads in my gun and it won't function with the stock springs and guide rod, can we please just be able to change that?

Oh and what about...

Stock Gun Division will NEVER happen.

Show me an American shooter who is happy with a box stock gun.

[Z-man]

GeorgeInNePa hit this one on the head.

It's pretty difficult to have a "stock" division. Sure we might say that nothing can be done to a gun, but would that even be a division that anyone would be interested in? I think that the fact of the matter is that what production currently looks like is unavoidable. In my opinion the division is working just fine, and that is evident by the growth and participation therein. While we can certainly work to clarify rules, I think we'll have a hard time making them much better than they are. Sure we might add particular things as they arise (such as slides can't be milled for sights or internally for lightening purposes), but the majority of issues are already dealt with (ie. sights, triggers, grip tape, external mods, etc.).

I have yet to see any modification that has been done to a production gun that really strikes me as "limited minorish" or else offering a significant advantage. I would greatly appreciate those that are more traveled and experienced to offer me some examples of things that they are having a hard time with and are causing all the discussion regarding production division.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Z-man

[ysued]

GeorgeInNePa hit this one on the head.

Yes he did!!!

It's pretty difficult to have a "stock" division. Sure we might say that nothing can be done to a gun, but would that even be a division that anyone would be interested in? I think that the fact of the matter is that what production currently looks like is unavoidable. In my opinion the division is working just fine, and that is evident by the growth and participation therein. While we can certainly work to clarify rules, I think we'll have a hard time making them much better than they are. Sure we might add particular things as they arise (such as slides can't be milled for sights or internally for lightening purposes), but the majority of issues are already dealt with (ie. sights, triggers, grip tape, external mods, etc.).

My feeling is that it is too late for the Milling of the Slides for Sights. I thought that was a bad ruling in the first place and it should have never happened. Now, with that said, what would you propose now?? Make these guns illegal for Production?? That would negatively affect many shooters and Gunsmiths that are making money with these modifications. I do agree with you that clarification is a must!! If we write clear and concise rules without too many loopholes and most importantly, we don't start making changes every month after that, we will be OK!!! If loopholes or questions come up, they must be submitted to the BOD and we must wait until the next rulebook comes out or an official addendum comes out, let's not burden John Amidon for tons of Ruling every month!!

I have yet to see any modification that has been done to a production gun that really strikes me as "limited minorish" or else offering a significant advantage. I would greatly appreciate those that are more traveled and experienced to offer me some examples of things that they are having a hard time with and are causing all the discussion regarding production division.

I'm with you, so far none of the modifications approved so far would not offer a significant "REAL" Advantage, percieved, yes, Real, NO!!!

The only modification I've always had a problem with was the Milling fo the slides for Melted Bomars, but that ship has already sailed, too late now!!

[Jim Norman]

How about this?

We will never have a box stock division. BUT we could have an IROC Divison. What we would need is for Glock, Springfield, CZ, Smith & Wesson, Para and any others to supply a sufficent number of firearms so that at each stage, there was one gun per shooter, plus a couple back-up guns. Ammo would be supplied by the major ammo companies. Rigs could be problematci, so I would do this, All starts off the table, wear your own mag pouches. Guns are numbered, you draw a number and that is your number on the stage for which gun you use.

Everyone then competes on each stage with essentially the same gear.

Stage One: Para

Stage Two: Glock

and so on.

Just a thought. Separate the shooters form the equipment and see who wins. Everyone there has to shoot multiple platforms, not just what they are used to and comfortable with.

All guns sighted in off a ransom rest for group and point of aim. All guns in each group as close as is humanly possible in function. A failure of a particular gun will be grounds for a reshoot. IE., if your gun breaks and cannot fire the required shots, you get a reshoot, Squibs are included. Jams are not. It must be a mechanical failure.

Jim

[ysued]

Jim,

This sounds crazy enough that it might work!!

How about this?

We will never have a box stock division. BUT we could have an IROC Divison. What we would need is for Glock, Springfield, CZ, Smith & Wesson, Para and any others to supply a sufficent number of firearms so that at each stage, there was one gun per shooter, plus a couple back-up guns. Ammo would be supplied by the major ammo companies. Rigs could be problematci, so I would do this, All starts off the table, wear your own mag pouches. Guns are numbered, you draw a number and that is your number on the stage for which gun you use.

Everyone then competes on each stage with essentially the same gear.

Stage One: Para

Stage Two: Glock

and so on.

Just a thought. Separate the shooters form the equipment and see who wins. Everyone there has to shoot multiple platforms, not just what they are used to and comfortable with.

All guns sighted in off a ransom rest for group and point of aim. All guns in each group as close as is humanly possible in function. A failure of a particular gun will be grounds for a reshoot. IE., if your gun breaks and cannot fire the required shots, you get a reshoot, Squibs are included. Jams are not. It must be a mechanical failure.

Jim

[JFD]

My thinking is that a Stock division's purpose would be to attract new members to USPSA. What you, as established USPSA shooters, like or don't like about it doesn't really matter. A new shooter is going to show up with a stock gun. It won't be until he meets some of you guys that he mods his gun into Production division.

The recoil springs are something else that falls into the "hard to enforce - we don't really care" category of allowed exceptions. If not, then the load needs some more powder.

The question is do you guys want to attempt to grow the sport by making a division with equipment more appealing to Joe Average, or do you want to do nothing? Our biggest problem is the perception of needing a high dollar gun/mods to shoot USPSA. When that is addressed, then we've at least taken a step in the right direction.

We may confirm Joe Average is too scared of competition to show up anyway. We may find out the manufacturers will get excited about the new divison. That means the gun writers will get excited about the new divison and we might actually grow the sport. Trying to steal or borrow shooters from IDPA is lame, yet that's about all I've seen attempted.

[Z-man]

Ysued, I don't propose any changes to the current rules. If problems arise in the future, then perhaps alterations can be made. The reason being, I have yet to see (or hear) of any significant problems that could otherwise be avoided.

While a completely "stock" division is an interesting concept, I doubt that it will bring any more members. If someone shows up to a USPSA match and shoots production with a box stock Glock, XD, Beretta, etc. are they really at a disadvantage? When I started this year (with a stock XD) I wasn't turned off because others had a trigger job on their Glock or had fancy "competition belts". That's why production is so great, shoot what you brought, and if you really get into it, there are a few things you might add to your gun to improve its function as you improve. Are we really seeing new shooters scared away by "race production guns"??

I really think its time to change the discussion to "how can we bring newer members into the sport".

Edited November 8, 2006 by Z-man

[Loves2Shoot]

Production is already that way, the average Joe doesn't even know the rules (or that his gun isn't competetive- which is not true anyway) and few people don't come back because their gun isn't "trick" enough IMO. The cost of tricking a gun is nothing compared to the cost of feeding it.

Joe Average shooter WANTS to trick his gun out in most cases. I do guns everyday that have things done that don't "need" to be done, but people WANT it done (I tell people this too, but they still go ahead and get them done.)

I would think if you take a poll of new shooters, they would want to be shooting tricked out guns to some extent, with the exception of a vocal hard core, "don't touch anything, the factory made it perfect" crowd.

Guns and cars are simliar in that way, there is a cool factor to have your gun "customized."

Are matches won due to burried Bomars or a trick trigger? No. But when you invest as much time and $ in the sport, you get to the point where you want things just so.

Production isn't broke, the mods (even burried Bomars) are reasonable for the average Joe IMO. The playing field is pretty even are far as the gear goes, because a lot of the mods peple whine about don't even matter, and Dave S is a perfect example for those who are doubters.

Could it be marketed differently, well that is another discussion.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Loves2Shoot

[Jim Norman]

There is no such thing in USPSA as a Beginners Division. There may be Entry Divisions, but not beginners!

USPSA is not the place to learn how your gun works or to learn basics of gun handling or shooting. Yes, we can as individuals teach this to prospective shooters, but the guy that shows up with his Glock still in the box and the box still in the bag from the gun store, with his holster still in the plastic baggie and his mags still blister packaged to the cardboard is not going to have a great expreiance. Likely neither are the people around him. By all means get this person to your range, show him, teach him, coach him and he may well become an active part of our sport.

I think it likely that many people will enter into USPSA through two divsions, Limited and Production. Both are divisions where many non-competing type gun owneres will have a gun that either fits or comes close. Sammy Shooter shows up with a stock 1911(insert any gun here, it really doesn't matter) that he has a reasonable undestanding of and has a handfull of magazines, a holster and a couple pouches. Don't worry if his equipment isn't quite correct for any particular division. In fact, if he shows up with a .32 caliber gun, so long as it works, and he is comfortable with it and can pass a safety check, let him shoot, obviously you need to inform him of what he needs to do to have a proper legal gun, but I would not send him home.

Just a few random thoughts ont he subject.

Jim

[GeorgeInNePa]

How about this?

We will never have a box stock division. BUT we could have an IROC Divison. What we would need is for Glock, Springfield, CZ, Smith & Wesson, Para and any others to supply a sufficent number of firearms so that at each stage, there was one gun per shooter, plus a couple back-up guns. Ammo would be supplied by the major ammo companies. Rigs could be problematci, so I would do this, All starts off the table, wear your own mag pouches. Guns are numbered, you draw a number and that is your number on the stage for which gun you use.

Everyone then competes on each stage with essentially the same gear.

Stage One: Para

Stage Two: Glock

and so on.

Just a thought. Separate the shooters form the equipment and see who wins. Everyone there has to shoot multiple platforms, not just what they are used to and comfortable with.

All guns sighted in off a ransom rest for group and point of aim. All guns in each group as close as is humanly possible in function. A failure of a particular gun will be grounds for a reshoot. IE., if your gun breaks and cannot fire the required shots, you get a reshoot, Squibs are included. Jams are not. It must be a mechanical failure.

Jim

So I have to buy a belt, mag pouches and ammo?

Sounds good, I'll shoot that. That even sound like fun!

[Z-man]

To play devil's advocate, while the idea of having supplied stock guns for each stage sounds good and seems to level the playing field, what about the person that really wants to be competive in this new division? Is it hard to imagine that people would go out and purchase one of each of the guns in order to be proficient? All of a sudden we have an arms race of a whole different sort! Suddenly the new person shows up and and has to shoot a whole group of guns they aren't familiar with against perhaps the top shooter that trains with one of each. I don't know if that is so far fetched. It would also be pretty costly for clubs and matches to run this division since at least one of each gun must be on hand.

[ysued]

We may find out the manufacturers will get excited about the new divison. That means the gun writers will get excited about the new divison and we might actually grow the sport. Trying to steal or borrow shooters from IDPA is lame, yet that's about all I've seen attempted.

Didin't we try that once befoe???

Oh, yeah, it was called Production Division!!!

[Jim Norman]

To play devil's advocate, while the idea of having supplied stock guns for each stage sounds good and seems to level the playing field, what about the person that really wants to be competive in this new division? Is it hard to imagine that people would go out and purchase one of each of the guns in order to be proficient? All of a sudden we have an arms race of a whole different sort! Suddenly the new person shows up and and has to shoot a whole group of guns they aren't familiar with against perhaps the top shooter that trains with one of each. I don't know if that is so far fetched. It would also be pretty costly for clubs and matches to run this division since at least one of each gun must be on hand.

Actually calling a divison was probably an error on my part. I was not thinking of it as a division where you had to own each gun, but rather as a IROC race where the best of the best and a lot of the rest paid a match fee that included the guns and ammo and magazines. HTey would shoot this one time each 1-2-3 years, whatever , and it would be a chance to see who was really the best. Each stage would be shot with the same guns, but the whole match would be shot with a different gun on each stage. You would not even know which guns would be there until you arrived. Maybe there would be revolvers and open guns and limited guns on some stages. It is an idea. Sort of a match of champions.

If you win this, you are simply really really good. You can't have precticeed with each gun enough to be across the board smooth, it will be your inate skills, not the money you spent, or your sponsor spent on a particular ultra blaster that puts you over the top. Maybe no one will win! Maybe each stage will be won by a different shooter and the total points maight not indicate an overall. I odn't knwo. we need someone with more time and much better conntections than I have to get it up and running.

Jim

[Tman33_99]

Didn't Mr. Bane do this exact thing on his Shooting Gallery show?

[Jim Norman]

To a limited extent yes, he did. I am talking about a major venue where maybe a couple hundred top shooters would take part.

Jim

[EricBudd]

You could go the opposite way and have an approved handgun for an IROC division. One gun, no mods, everyone shoots heads up. In exchange for their gun being chosen, the manufacturer pays $$ to USPSA (maybe the Junior's program) for every gun sold.

I know, it another gun to buy, but who doesn't like to buy guns?

[JFD]

My thinking is we need to have a division that addresses the "you need a $XXXX.XX racegun to shoot USPSA" comments that I constantly run into when trying to interest folks in shooting USPSA.

Try mentioning Production, and the nearest IDPAer will chime in with "you only need a $200 trigger, $200 barrel, $100 sights, blah, blah, blah". I can argue the point, but it's a lost cause by then.

If the impression we're trying to bring across is we are a high dollar sport full of snobs, then we're there already. If not, then the issue needs to be addressed.

Would addressing this actually increase membership? We won't know if we don't give it a try.

L-10 and Production is where our new shooters start. Only a few shoot Limited, and usually because of bad advice. I've been surprised at how many IDPA shooters come out to escape equipment restrictions and choose L-10 for their Glock, XD, etc...

Concerning Production, my only wish would be to get rid of the holster/mag pouch restrictions.

[Jim Norman]

You could go the opposite way and have an approved handgun for an IROC division. One gun, no mods, everyone shoots heads up. In exchange for their gun being chosen, the manufacturer pays $$ to USPSA (maybe the Junior's program) for every gun sold.

I know, it another gun to buy, but who doesn't like to buy guns?

Not a bad idea, but we'd need a tear down fee just like racing. No mods allowed is very hard to police. We get right back into the Production delema we are in now.

Jim

[racerba]

Try mentioning Production, and the nearest IDPAer will chime in with "you only need a $200 trigger, $200 barrel, $100 sights, blah, blah, blah". I can argue the point, but it's a lost cause by then.

You hit the nail right there on the head - "the nearest IDPAer..."

[Jim Norman]

And the Wilson IDPA Special isn't a bundle????

Let's see, I shoot a rock stock Glock, a rock stock Sig and now am shooting an XD. admittedly not stock, I have $300 invested above the cost of the gun. Dawson sights and a trigger job. Truth? The sights I probably needed, the trigger wan't all that bad out od the box, but it really rocks now. Oh, and I have a lighter spring in since my 135 PF loads weren't hot enough for the stock spring.

I think that it is entirely possible to convert an IDPA'r to USPSA with his already in hand gear and unless he keeps stopping behind walls to reload and stuffing half empy mags back into his pockets, he can be competative in USPSA.

Jim

[Chuck Anderson]

I think a box stock division would do more harm than good for attracting shooters. How many shooters come out that already have grip tape, or aftermarket sights, or grip plugs, or some kind of aftermarket trigger of some sort. A LOT of new shooters that I see have some kind of modification to their gun before they show up. Not all but a lot. I can imagine the new shooter showing up with his duty gun, or his carry gun only to find out that it's illegal because of the extremely limited mods he did to it. I know it would probably be my last match.

[Nik Habicht]

You could go the opposite way and have an approved handgun for an IROC division. One gun, no mods, everyone shoots heads up. In exchange for their gun being chosen, the manufacturer pays $$ to USPSA (maybe the Junior's program) for every gun sold.

I know, it another gun to buy, but who doesn't like to buy guns?

Not a bad idea, but we'd need a tear down fee just like racing. No mods allowed is very hard to police. We get right back into the Production delema we are in now.

Jim

No you wouldn't need a tear down fee. It's a hypothetical box stock division dedicated to one particular gun, right? Let's assume an S&W 5906 for arguments sake. Everybody who wants to play, buys one to practice with. The match would just need to obtain a couple of examples from the manufacturer to be issued on the stages. At the end of the match, they could be raffled off as prizes.....

S&W did something similar at the IDPA Winter Championships a few years ago --- they had you shoot a stage with two or three J-frame revolvers. At the end of the match, the revolvers were raffled off.....

[ysued]

I think a box stock division would do more harm than good for attracting shooters. How many shooters come out that already have grip tape, or aftermarket sights, or grip plugs, or some kind of aftermarket trigger of some sort. A LOT of new shooters that I see have some kind of modification to their gun before they show up. Not all but a lot. I can imagine the new shooter showing up with his duty gun, or his carry gun only to find out that it's illegal because of the extremely limited mods he did to it. I know it would probably be my last match.

I see your point, but then again, they could shoot Production, L-10 or Limited.

BTW, if he had a Grip plug he couldn't shoot in PD Anyways, so it's a Moot point.

I'm not pushing for another Division, but just contemplating new ideas is not bad.

In all honesty I think a Clarified PD would be just perfect!!

BTW, AFAIK you can Replace Barrels and Sights on IDPA too