45 recoil spring

[Steve Moneypenny]

I have a stock Kimber Classic custom, no modifications except a mag well.

i have been thinking about a lighter recoil spring, i have a 10# that came in a kit, it feels very soft, i am shooting 230 grn lead at a 168-170 power factor. and have a shok-buffer in the gun, i was wondering if it was harmful to the gun to run this recoil spring, i shoot quite a bit, and will be shooting more soon, and am worried about battering the frame, will this be a problem?

(yes this was inspired by the post on recoil springs on glock talk, that is mentioned below)

[GMyers]

SMoney,

I have a Kimber Custom Stainless Target.  I have been using an 18.5# recoil spring with Shock-Buffs.  I get a neat pile of brass about 4 feet from my standing position, which many consider to be optimum for a M1911 in .45 cal.  The general rule that I have seen says use the heaviest spring that still allows for proper cycling of the gun.

Why would you want to use such a light spring in your gun at  a major power factor (This is truely a question and not a condemnation)?  Would that have anything to do with faster cycle times?

At nearly half of the factory spring rate I would think that the gun would really take a beating!  Based on some of the other posts that I have seen on the forum I would also think that you might loose some velocity because the slide would cycle out of battery much sooner.

Hopefully an experienced answer will come soon!

[bonedaddy]

smoney, if you intend to shoot major PF ammo, I would recommend keeping your gun's spring near the stock weight.  There is nothing wrong at all with Gman's 18.5#.   The 10# springs  are for "softball" bulleseye loads and not IPSC major. Light springs and slides are mostly seen on steel guns, where PF runs about 125.

    The only thing that is going to help any of us to better manage recoil, is practice.

                   Shoot well - Sam

[Kyle Norris]

I'll disent. I run a 14# in my single stack(actually it's probably about a 12 now...need to replace it). I've seen no undue signs of wear in the 8,000 or so rounds I've put through this gun. All have been Major loads, ranging from 168s to some stompin 197s(loading a wierd powder, makes good pinloads though). All my guns are lightly sprung, and get a high volume of rounds. I haven't seen any battering with or without shock buffs. I do perfer to run them however.

[Steve Moneypenny]

GMyers, a lighter spring will make the gun shoot softer, meaning less muzzle rise per shot fired. i have ran an 18.5 that is a little much for me, the 16lb isn't too bad, but i still want lighter than that, however i do not want to damage the firearm.

sam, #1 rule of ipsc, it is easier to upgrade equipment than shooters skills. yes, i do need a lot of practice, but i don't think it will be all that beneficial to just practice recoil handling. i have heard a lot of GM's use very light springs, ( 10# range) i was hoping to get brian's imput here. along with some other very experienced shooters, mainly because they have a millions of rounds through various guns. i feel its easier to ask them than it is to buy all fo the springs and spend money i don't have ( college student) on ammo to test them.

[eerw]

Hey Smoney,

I think I have been running something between a 14 and 16 in my 5" 45. Ususally I spring a gun a couple of ways, be it right or wrong. First I see where the brass is ejecting a piling up. About 4 to 5 feet to the right is good for me. Next I usually shoot doubles at about 4 to 6 yards and see where the second shot lands. If is consistly low, I figure too much springs, too high too light of a spring. This seems to work for me and the style for which I shoot. I am able to see the sight lift and return with each shot without fighting the gun for control. Hope that helps and if I'm wrong, somebody please help me.. :-)

[GMyers]

SMoney,

What are the physics behind a lighter spring causing less muzzle rise?

1)  Is more of the recoil energy transfered to the frame thereby putting recoil more in line with the axis of the arms?

OR

2) Is it the slide coming out of battery sooner allowing chamber pressure to escape from both ends of the tube?

Depending on the answer, a direction should start to emerge.

[Kyle Norris]

I don't know the physics behind it, I just know it works. Todd runs light springs in all his guns. He has a couple of 40s with over 50,000 rounds through them. Therefore, I wouldn't say there is a durability issue. IMHO, springs are one of the most misunderstood parts of a handgun.  

[Steve Moneypenny]

GMyers. not sure how to explain this on recoil, but, think of it this way, the spring is what is applying the pressure on the gun, so it is pushing your wrists back and up, somewhere on this site there is a link to a high speed video clip of a gun in action. your body actually compensates very quickly if the spring weight is less, more like if you push someone slowly you move them, but if you punch them quick it hurts, but they still stand there? make any sence?

its basically speeding up the process a bit. i don't really understand that , just know what i have seen and felt.

[bonedaddy]

why silly me!   Imagine that.... suggesting that recoil management could possibly be as important to precision speed shooting as sight alignment or proper trigger control.  What on earth was I thinking?  

[GMyers]

Check out 'Exactly when does a muzzle "flip"... ' in the BEginners Forum, Shooting Questions.  One of the replies has the link to the site in Germany, some really cool video.

It sounds like your answer to my "What are the physics..." question would be #1.  If this is in fact what really is happening then maybe try a #14 per Kyle N. and EERW.  I would have to think that a shock-buff would be good to have in place though.  At least then you can somewhat judge gun battering based on how quickly the buff is getting ripped.

My ~very~ limited experience with 16# and 18.5# springs has be that the 18.5# seems to have less felt recoil.  My non-scientific testing seemed to produce a little more muzzle flip with the 16# but being the newbie that I am I could very well be all wet.

To date I have been convinced by others on this forum to not mess with variable rate springs but that too may be another option to explore.  I have'nt yet totally given up on the idea though.  I am going to order a spring tune-up kit (main, mag release, etc) maybe I will get a 14# and 15# recoil spring just to satisfy my curiosity.

Great thread, lots of new learning for a new shooter!

[Kyle Norris]

GMyers, yep I love shock buffs. Kinda like a shock absorber on your car, absorb some of the spring energy and smooth things out(another TJ analogy). The one problem with buffs is running them in standard barrel guns. To borrow a phrase from Mr. Sweeny(I advise anybody pick up his book, kinda like a "Smithing for Dummies" guide, well, maybe hacking for me) is that standard recoil spring plugs are "buffer killers". The sharp edges on the back cut a nice little circle in the buff, shredding it. So it can appear you guns getting slammed much harder than it it. Just food for thought.

(Edited by Kyle Norris at 8:40 pm on Sep. 4, 2001)

[GMyers]

Thanks Kyle.

Right now I am in sponge mode, learn all that I can (please excuse) so could you tell me what you know about light recoil springs and the "give and take" of heavy vs. light.  I know if you get too light you will break the gun but what happens in between?  Thanks!

[Duane Thomas]

Well, I hate to be the dissenting voice, but I love the Wolff variable power springs. They make a lot of sense to me. Think of it this way:  your gun flips its muzzle when you fire it because the line of energy it's providing you (bore line) is above the pivot point (your hands) therefore the gun has leverage to flip its muzzle on you. The heavier the recoil spring, the more resistence to the slide coming to the rear, the more that energy gets transferred to you. Many experienced IPSCers love running light springs in their guns because it takes less energy to move the slide, therefore less muzzle flip.

Now that bit about lighter recoil springs giving you less muzzle flip is not a hard-and-fast rule. There is a point of diminishing returns where recoil spring weight becomes so light, the slide starts rocketing to the rear so fast, you get MORE recoil. But in general the rule holds true.

The problem with running really light springs in Limited or Limited 10 is that you can begin to batter the gun in short order. It's important in the discussion of recoil spring weights to differentiate between what is appropriate for a Limited/L10 gun and what is appropriate for an Open gun. The compensated Open gun will take a much lighter spring than the uncomped Limited/L10 piece. Most of the lessened muzzle flip in a compgun does not actually come from the gases exiting the port(s) but from the high speed powder gases slamming into the deflection port at the front of the comp. This pulls the front of the gun forward and to a large extent lessens the force coming to the rear that gets turned into muzzle flip. Where the compensator really has an effect is that it delays unlocking of the action for much longer than an uncomped gun. Think about it - in order for the gun's action to unlock, the rear of the barrel must tilt down, the front of the barrel must tilt up. With the gas flow from the compensator pushing down on the front of the barrel, it delays movement/unlocking of the barrel for much longer than normal, until much of the recoil energy has dissipated. A comp gun running a (heavy) spring weight appropriate for an uncomped gun simply wouldn't cycle much of the time. The recoil spring weight would be too much for the slowed-down slide to work with. By the same token, put a (light) recoil spring weight appropriate for a comp gun in a non-comped model and you'll swifly begin to beat the living hell out of it.

Variable power recoil springs were originally designed for comp guns. The way the variable springs work is that, in contrast to standard springs where the coils are evenly spaced (except at one end where it closes up, of course), on the variable springs the coils toward each end are more closely spaced than in the center. Let's say that when conventional coil spring A compresses 1/2 inch it stores one pound of energy; when it compresses another 1/2 inch it stores another pound of energy, and so on. When variable power spring B compresses 1/2 inch it stores 1/2 pound of energy, another 1/2 inch stores one pound of energy, another 1/2 inch stores 1-1/2 pounds, and so forth. (These figures are of course not exact but simply put forth to illustrate the concept.)

The advantage to the variable power recoil spring is that you can have a much lighter initial resistence to the slide begining to move to the rear, thus less muzzle flip, but still have the resistence to gun battering of running a full-power spring. I also find that running the variable power springs makes it much easier to cycle the action on a gun since less initial effort is required to get the slide moving. This could be important for people with limited hand strength.

Take your .45 and fire it with a 16-1/2 pound Wolff straight rate recoil spring. Note the amount of muzzle flip and perceived recoil. Then replace the recoil spring with a 16-1/2 pound Wolff variable power jobbie. Fire the gun, note the amount of muzzle flip and perceived recoil. I can pretty much guarantee you'll be amazed at the difference. I was.

What exactly is the perfect recoil spring weight for a Limited/L10 gun is a topic on which many people have their opinions, and I'm no exception. It's important to realize that many factors inside the gun can affect how fast and smoothly it cycles, likewise the power of the ammo you're firing, the type of powder and its burn rate, etc. can all affect just what weight spring will allow the best combination of lessened muzzle flip and long gun life.

For my own Wilson .45, firing primarily Laser Cast 200-gr. LSWCs with a powder charge of 4.7-gr. Hodgdon's Titegroup for an 860 fps/170 PF load, I find that a Wolff 15-pound variable power recoil spring works best for me.

I say this elsewhere on the web site but it bears repeating. Watch your Shok Buff. You'll find there's a spring weight at which you have really light recoil and the Shok Buff lasts 1,000 to 2,000 rounds, if not more. Drop down one more pound and the buff gets trashed in 100 rounds. Keep dropping spring weight until your Shok Buff tells you, "Whoa! Too light!" Then bump it back up one pound to the last weight that allowed good longevity of the Shok Buff. You've found your perfect recoil spring weight.

Hope all that helped some.

[GMyers]

BD, sorry if some of my questions may be mis-directed or secondary to the real requirments of shooting.  Right now I am just trying to learn ~everything~ I can about shooting and mechanics is one of them.  The sooner I understand, the sooner those questions will be knowledge.

(if recoil management is of little importance... why a Comp Gun?)  This may in fact be a valid question!

(Edited by GMyers at 10:15 pm on Sep. 4, 2001)

[Kyle Norris]

Most of what I know about recoil springs comes from conversations with upper to top level shooters. I know Todd runs an 10 or 11# in his Limited gun, and a 9 or 10 in his comp gun. I also know that Phil Strader runs a 14(or less, he says he needs to change it) in his Limited gun. These are the two big dogs(at least in Limited) I shoot with with any frequency. I'm personally using in my STI...whatever was in it when I bought it. See smoney's comments about being a poor college student, they fit here too. Probably switch to a 12 or 13 soon here, as I tried the 11 out of my Para and it didn't work 100%. Shot flat, just didn't shoot all the time. Another factor is slide weight, the heavier the slide, the more battering( also more energy transmitted into the hand, hence the more lightened slide around). As well as powder, the higher pressure powders have a harder but shorter recoil impulse.

Here's the real trick to all this though. You have to be able to see the sights well enough to tell the difference. And when I say see, I mean SEE. Do they go left, right or straight under recoil? Can you tell how far they're tracking upward(trick, use the target edges). I haven't mastered this yet. I'm still only about a 75% shot caller. The other 25% of the time(usually all at once) I call zero shots. Depends on the day, weather and God knows what else. The only way to learn is to shoot a lot. So I would stick with the spring in the gun till you think you can see what the gun is doing.  

[bonedaddy]

    Sorry I took the discussion off track guys.  Smoney was asking about springs and I should have limited my answer to his topic.  

   Kyle, I run 14# in my STI .40 and sometimes in my 1986 vintage Springfield .45 too.  Your right, no battering.  That Springfield out lasted a Lee Pro-1000 reloader and is no worse for wear.  It probably saw about 6,000 rounds a year for 10 years.  A 10# spring does seem light for 230 hardball, but hey, experimentation is half the fun.

                    -Sam

               

[Duane Thomas]

"Another factor is slide weight, the heavier the slide, the more battering( also more energy transmitted into the hand, hence the more lightened slide around)."

My impression was always that the heavier slides cycled slower, thus less battering. When I was talking to Robbie at Area One he told me he had to drop down to - if memory serves me correctly - a 12-pound recoil spring in his 6" longslide just to get the gun to cycle 100 percent of the time

[Duane Thomas]

"Sorry I took the discussion off track guys.  Smoney was asking about springs and I should have limited my answer to his topic."

Don't feel bad. One of the things I really like about this message board - and message boards in general for that matter - is how the topics can metamorphosize over time. You start out talking about one thing and by the time you're done you're talking about something else. Maybe several somethings else. It's part of the fun - and the educational experience.

[GMyers]

Thanks all for the additional information!  You too BD... a little light hearted sarcasm never hurt anyone.

I feel I have received enough experienced information that I can safely do a little testing on my own.  SMoney, I hope that you too got some good info from this thread.

I appreciate everyone's willingness to guide us, the simple Gatherers, it really helps!

[Steve Moneypenny]

Yes, i did get a lot of good info, and after seeing a post by matt burkett on glock talk i emailed him, he said he runs between 10 & 12 lb springs in his guns at Major PF all the time i will probabally move up to 11 or 12, will post if i have any problems, it is VERY soft shooting.

[Kyle Norris]

Duane is right, a lighter slide does batter more. I was thinking about what I personally feel. I like how light slides recoil, esp with 200gr bulllets. 180s, even in a Unique profile STI slide can get snappy after all day. Even more so after shooting a Para that was closer to 50ozs than 40. However...the Para SHOT sweet with a light springs. Ith just transitioned slow, loaded slower and was a pain in the ass to keep running. But it did shoot flatter than all but one other Limited gun I've shot.

[GMyers]

One question... what do you mean when you say "soft shooting"?  Is it the recoil as felt in the hands/wrist? And/or muzzle flip?

I ordered a boat load of springs from Wolff for various pistols that I and my shooting bud have.  Amongst the package will be a 14#, 15# and 17# variable rate springs for the M1911 Kimber.  I don't know if they will perform for me like they do for others but $24 dollars is pretty cheap testing.  This weekend I should find out for myself what you describe as "soft shooting".  I will post my perceptions!

[Steve Moneypenny]

not sure how to put it into words, it is a preception of felt recoil and muzzle flip, this is what i feel, with an 18.5# spring, it feels like the gun is slamming back pushing my hands back breaking my wrists ( this is not break like hurting, but when you "lock in" your wrists it breaks that lock you had on the gun. that is used to controle muzzle climb/flip.

it also seems a LOT faster on target with the 10# spring, before it was like i was waiting for that second sight picture. now its there!

[GMyers]

So far I have been very happy with the 18.5# spring.  Now that my ability to percieve in real time is improving, I will be able to see and feel the difference.  I will let you know!