M1911 Extractor Fitting Question

[wsimpso1]

I just had an extractor break, and while fitting the new (Ed Brown) ones, I found that they contacted the tapered part of the extraction groove in the case. This contact was pretty heavy, and prevented the case from being able to sit back against the breech face. With a tool, I could get it back, and it cammed the extractor out some to do it. Hmmm.

I checked with Jerry Kuhnhausen, and he actually recommends (in his book) relieving the extractor so that it touches the case only at the bottom of the extraction groove, not on the edge of the rim and not on the forward tapered surface of the groove.

Well, that made all sorts of sense to me - I figure that under firing loads, the case will shove back, flexing the extractor and maybe contributing to fatigue (by making the load cycle bigger) and failure of the claw, which is what had happened to the last one.

So, are all of your long lived M1911 extractors clearing the case except at the bottom of the extraction groove, or do they hit the cases and leave a mark in the taper?

Billski

[HSMITH]

I relieve the end so that it does not hit the case, also check to make sure the barrel isn't hitting it. IIRC Brazos has a nice tutorial on fitting an extractor, you may want to take a look at that.

Pick up an AFTEC, I am really impressed with the performance of mine, and it appears to be quite a bit stronger than a normal extractor.

[ipscbob]

Yup, I always check for clearance to the round and barrel using Machinists indicator fluid. Some extractors require relieving while others don't. I have also had an issue with an aftec clipping the cutout in the barrel as well. Always check.......

[Dave Sample]

Interesting! It always amazes me on the new things I learn on forums. I have been fitting extractors for a long time and never even considered this problem. I tweak them and stick them in and I have never had one break yet. I just fly by the seat of my pants and do it to it. I polish the end of the hook so they can push feed if they have to. I re-shape the inside of the hook and curve the lower end and then adjust the tension and forget it. I will say that when I was building Race Guns (No Offense Intended) I always did an extra extractor as a back up in case one broke during a match. If any of them broke, I have never heard about it.

I think you need a quality part to start with and perhaps some skill. I use Caspian Extractors and have for 20 years without any problems so far.

[Flyin40]

Pick up an AFTEC, I am really impressed with the performance of mine, and it appears to be quite a bit stronger than a normal extractor.

+1 on going with an Aftec. The original extactor held up for probably 25,000 rounds and just decided to go with the aftec. Very glad I did, getting close to 10,000 rounds so far this yr. Only jam has been at a recent match where I'm almost 100% sure I thumbed the slide and one other jam where I purposely didn't clean to see how long it would run.

Flyin40

[Josh Biondi]

Interesting! It always amazes me on the new things I learn on forums. I have been fitting extractors for a long time and never even considered this problem. I tweak them and stick them in and I have never had one break yet. I just fly by the seat of my pants and do it to it. I polish the end of the hook so they can push feed if they have to. I re-shape the inside of the hook and curve the lower end and then adjust the tension and forget it. I will say that when I was building Race Guns (No Offense Intended) I always did an extra extractor as a back up in case one broke during a match. If any of them broke, I have never heard about it.

I think you need a quality part to start with and perhaps some skill. I use Caspian Extractors and have for 20 years without any problems so far.

I agree with Dave, me too follow the same procedure to work on the extractor and after I forget it.... just sometimes I check the tension.

[wsimpso1]

Thanks for the input. I relieved the extractor to clear cases and the gun runs great. I too have fitted an extra for this gun, and now I am going to buy and fit extras for the others. The gun that broke one had something like 12000 rounds by a previous owner.

Billski

[EricW]

I've never done anything more than Dave Sample does and my Brazos bar stock extractor has been ticking along like a swiss watch for over 15K now. I'd buy a lot more of them...but nothing seems to go wrong with them. And I have to agree on the part quality. As near as I can tell, you can expect a quality extractor to last many tens of thousands of rounds.

[HSMITH]

Eric, the Brazos extractor already has these steps done for you, as does the SVI. I wonder who makes the extractor for Brazos? At any rate both are very good.

Dave, I lost the hook on a Caspian with less than 4000 rounds. Things happen, extractors break, it isn't a dig on Caspian as their extractors are very good quality but more to show that Murphy can and will show up no matter what parts you use.

If the extractor hits the case forward of the rim it will still likely work just fine for a while, but it will lose tension faster than one that has been relieved. It will flex more and it will flex every time. If it hits the barrel the same thing will happen but it will likely break a lot sooner than it would have if it was clearanced.

Not checking these things is silly. Takes 20 seconds, and may save a match from the crapper someday. There isn't any reason not to check.

Brazos tutorial with great pictures

http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/ejection%20perfection.htm

[Irishlad]

I'm one of "those" that doesn't have any issues with internal extractors over many 10's of thousands of rounds. Never broke one, bad luck to say however , rarely if ever lose tension, etc, etc. Others seem to have a terrible time with them.

And...it's not anything I'm doing so no "credit" to me or any of my weekend gunsmith hacking I've done.

Many people say it's the "quality" of the extractor manufacturering, but there are quality companies making them, as mentioned and others, and some(many?) still break. Don't get it!

I've "read" of extractor tests to simulate push feeding, snapping over, etc and it went 10, 20 thousand times(can't remember) and the extractor hook didn't break.

Maybe it's the variable "machining" of slides, i.e. FP hole location to the extractor hole, breech face, etc?? How about the timing of the barrel when it unlocks relative to the pressure of the chamber and the extractor trying to remove the casing...too much stress if it's "off/too early". Timing of the ammo with recoil springs/mag springs, etc causing "snap overs"...although read above!

It "seems" the easiest part of the equation would be to produce the extractor of quality steel, dimensions, hardness and it should work. Maybe it's not the extractor.

Okay, I'm done now.

Edited September 4, 2006 by Irishlad

[Dave Sample]

I think that I am just lucky. I have an extractor here from Caspian Arms with a broked tip. It had been re worked by an "Expert" who thinned out the hook as some people have decribed. EAGLES LAW: "All parts fail, some fail sooner than others."

These are tricky parts and the steel and the heat treat have to be just so. I remember a re call from Caspian because of a heat treat problem a few years ago. SA used a hard chromed extractor in their SS 1911's and they fail sooner rather than later. SS is a poor metal for some parts, but the SS extractors I use seem OK.

My worst enemy when I was open for business were the people who read gunrag ads! They always wanted the "New, Improved Washday Product" instead of the good old stuff that had proven itself.

[EricW]

I thought the external 1911 extractor was the holy grail. Turns out that all you really need to do is put a quality extractor into a properly machined slide...and guess what? It's not a problem. If an extractor lasts me 25K, I'd say that was $16 well spent.

[Grump]

Quote:

So, are all of your long lived M1911 extractors clearing the case except at the bottom of the extraction groove, or do they hit the cases and leave a mark in the taper?

end quote.

Maybe I'm a forum gull on this, but I don't see many answers to this part of the question.

I've had only two guns of any sort with extractors that hit as described--one was Kel-Tec with engagement so hard it prevented chambering on lighter loads. EEK! Relieved it some but it still needs more.

I've not seen any "official" word on this, but my mechanical inclinations make me not only agree with what you describe Kuhnhausen saying, but also add that if the extractor does NOT tend to tension the case in the breechface to lightly hold it there, it *should*.

On external extractors--I like them. Here's why. I had some not-quite-fully-resized 9mms a few years ago--worked fine in Dad's SIG (early P226), but the chamber on my cheapo WunderNine was tighter. Ammo stuck just far enough in the "dwell" area (between barrel lockup and slide fully forward) that the hammer could not hit the firing pin. Jammed tight, couldn't open it up. I just levered the external extractor off the case, opened the slide up, and let it slam home to finish chambering that bad boy. "Your round is REALLY stuck now!!" you might say, but putting the power of that powder to work (fired the round) gave me all the oomph needed to clear the chamber and get back to shooting.

What else ya gonna do when the stuck round is beyond the strenght of that aluminum cleaning rod? Plus, I *don't* like banging on live rounds with an open chamber anyway.

Edited September 13, 2006 by Grump

[ipscbob]

I think that I am just lucky. I have an extractor here from Caspian Arms with a broked tip. It had been re worked by an "Expert" who thinned out the hook as some people have decribed. EAGLES LAW: "All parts fail, some fail sooner than others."

Well, I guess since I am NOT an Expert like dave, I shouldn't have answered the man's question.

[Dave Sample]

ipscbob! Of course you should have answered the question. I have never used an Aftec extractor in my life! I am always interested in these things that the other guys use well. I am not an "Internet Expert," either. I have just built Custom Caspians for about 20 years and if it works, I don't fix it. I used to fit two extractors to my 1911's and I have never heard from any client yet that needed to use the second one. Maybe it was redundent, but it made sense back then. I serrated most of them and blended them into the rear of the slide. Common now, but it was not a thing that the other smiths did. It was easy to do an extra and cheap, too. I did all the work inside and out.

External extractors have been around for 90-100 years and they work fine until they break or get dirty. Then the fun starts.

How many of you jerk the extractor out and clean that hole with a .22 Bore Brush?

[EricW]

How many of you jerk the extractor out and clean that hole with a .22 Bore Brush?

We may not use a 22 brush specifically, but I think most people on here perform that service at least every 5-7K if not sooner. Believe it or not, folks here have shot a gun once or twice before.

[HSMITH]

I do use a 22 bore brush. Might as well, because my 22's never see a bore brush........

You have to get the really cheap 22 brushes though, a good brush is stiff enough it is a real pain to get through the extractor hole.

One pass in, one pass out, a shot of brake cleaner, done.

I clean the extractor tunnel every 2-3 thousand rounds, and I go a LONG time between malfunctions.

[hitman]

+1 for Caspian

Had one (and only one, so far) break at about 75K.

I really like the Dawson extractor also, got about 20K on one right now.

[Dave Sample]

Sounds like you guys actually shoot your guns! What a wonderful concept. I am also glad some of you clean out that hole! It works a little bit for the firing pin hole too. I clean these areas on a regular basis. I also polish the humps in the middle of the extractor and make them smooth. That thing has to be able to spring back and forth and do it's job.

A clean gun is a happy gun! The idea of shooting a gun until it is so dirty it quits is really beyond me. I do not know what is being proven by this behavior. I have never done that. I like my stuff clean. I tear them down after I shoot them and when I go to the range, the guns are spotless.

[ipscbob]

A clean gun is a happy gun! The idea of shooting a gun until it is so dirty it quits is really beyond me. I do not know what is being proven by this behavior. I have never done that. I like my stuff clean. I tear them down after I shoot them and when I go to the range, the guns are spotless.

I couldnt agree more.

You mean your supposed to clean that thingy that the extractor goes into?? Just kidding, I use a rod with a patch every thousand rounds or so.