Insecure With Seeing?

[boo radley]

I've noticed lately the difference between *seeing* and not seeing is starting to get vague again. I'm wondering if this is a function of improvement -- ie, things are happening faster -- or a regression into the danger zone of NOT seeing.

IOW, from very painful experience, I learned exactly what I needed to see, at, say, 7-15 yards on important shots, say classifiers, and only when I started seeing that sight picture did scores and class improve, from C->B.

But there was a really clear difference in "seeing" and not seeing, and what the front sight looked like, etc.

Lately, I can tell that my scores and times are better, but I might shoot a stage, and get all the hits, but I'm not sure what, or how much I saw. It's different. Don't know if this is a function of just not needing the same sort of sight picture, as often, or if I'm just getting lucky and getting better at shooting my index, subconsciously.

Is that indulgent babbling? There's really a genuine question in there, somewhere. <sigh>

[benos]

Maybe it's both. (Cryptic answer to a hidden question.)

The longer you shoot - especially if you've learned what it means to read the sights and are actually doing that - the more effortlessly the bullets will go where you want them to. But the danger there is complacency. To keep improving - keep finding new things to become aware of.

be

[mcoliver]

I think I'm in the same boat.

I know I "saw something" since I get all my hits right (well, most of them anyway). But I no longer remember each and every one of them except on targets I made recovery shots or felt had a miss/D. Maybe it's the thought processing thing being able to remember only those where I actually had to think.

[boo radley]

Brian and MCOliver -- I very much appreciate the comments, and meant to thank y'all, but wanted to get a few more matches in, and think about this some more....

Here's what I'm thinking, and wonder how off-base this is:

1) There are shots in which you don't see much of anything, really, and don't remember (since there's nothing TO remember). The outcome may or may not be good.

2) There are shots in which you see what you need, and execute upon it. The outcome SHOULD always be good, or provide a make-up opportunity, and you may or may not remember these shots.

3) There are shots in which you saw what you needed, and *remember* it, for whatever reason -- maybe because you released a shot before having the patience to correct a sight picture, or...well, I can remember a sight-picture from this weekend, vividly. Long steel plate, perfect alignment, and the plate laughed at me. Or, you remember them because they were important to you. This is getting into what concerned me originally.

I don't think my seeing has changed; what I do think is I was confusing what I *remember* seeing, with what one *needs* to see.

And, of course, I find it oh-so-easy to slip into the kind of shooting in "#1". Obviously, for me, anyway, this doesn't necessarily get easier with getting better. That's a bit discouraging.

[benos]

I can remember a sight-picture from this weekend, vividly. Long steel plate, perfect alignment, and the plate laughed at me.

Do you remember seeing the front sight lift off the plate?

I've missed a lot of targets when all I remember seeing was a perfect sight picture.

I don't think my seeing has changed; what I do think is I was confusing what I *remember* seeing, with what one *needs* to see.

We see a lot of things we cannot remember. To shoot successfully and consistently however, I found it best to train to see and remember specific key elements of every string. (What I need to see.) Off course "what I need to see" will vary with every string, and how I'm feeling at the moment. But once you've trained long enough to know without doubt what you need to see, then, the trick becomes learning how to see. (I think the last paragraph in that post explains what I mean by "how.")

be

[AikiDale]

Do you remember seeing the front sight lift off the plate?

I've missed a lot of targets when all I remember seeing was a perfect sight picture.

Boy does that sum up my shooting last weekend at the steel match. I was really seeing that front sight. Couldn't buy a plate. Maybe I was blinking.

We see a lot of things we cannot remember. To shoot successfully and consistently however, I found it best to train to see and remember specific key elements of every string. (What I need to see.) Off course "what I need to see" will vary with every string, and how I'm feeling at the moment. But once you've trained long enough to know without doubt what you need to see, then, the trick becomes learning how to see. (I think the last paragraph in that post explains what I mean by "how.")

be

Edited August 31, 2006 by AikiDale

[SA Friday]

I am just starting to call my shots, and making up misses. I have no recollection of shooting targets with good hits (usually). I think there may be two elements into seeing; what your brain can process while multi-tasking, and what you brain has been programmed to register. The more I shoot, I swear I can see the 'snap-shot' of the target picture in my mind when I miss. Do I always process it and make the shot up... nope. But I'm getting better at it.

Multi-tasking seems to come into play in two ways. The more I shoot, the less I have to focus on some of the basic skills. They take care of themselves (usually, ha ha). This frees my brain to focus more on the tasks at hand; precise movements, movement distances, secondary stuff that I still have to really concentrate on. The second part is I tipically don't 'see' my misses in a part of the stage that is 'busy'; Reload, switch hands, and move all at the same time. This, I hope, will get better in the future with practice, making these things more automatic, and freeing up my brain to 'see' that miss in a busy location.

Does that make any sense to anyone else?

[benos]

Definitely. That's one of the cool challenges, or "traps," in Practical Shooting. An "involved" start sequence - you have to move over there and put something somewhere before drawing - makes it much more difficult to get started shooting without feeling panicked. The more experience you have, the more you'll appreciate the value of "finishing each thing before starting the next thing."

be

[Matt Griffin]

Boo,

Try this on for size. You mentioned three scenarios, no-see no-remember, see no-remember, see remember.

The first, bad scenario is a big problem of course, but it's your problem to fix. No doubt it is some form of stress or distraction or mental thing that is individual to you. (I've got my own version.)

On the see no-remember scenario, this is probably a good thing, you're seeing what you need to see, releasing the shot, and your brain is dropping the whole transaction and moving on. Brian might have refined it to where he can remember these "boring" shots, but I certainly haven't yet.

The third scenario, see remember, is usually triggered by some non-standard input, and here's where I might have some insight. You mentioned having a perfect sight picture and still missing a plate, and also remembering this clearly. Let me posit that you saw a perfect sight picture, THEN your attention wandered, and you broke a bad shot. Your brain had already started to discard the shot because it "saw" what it wanted to see for a boring shot. But when you missed the plate, your brain suddenly started paying very close attention, and relegated the short-term memory to long-term.

What I'm saying is that you missed the shot between remembering the sight picture and remembering the plate not falling. Somewhere in there your brain was wandering around, and this is when the shooting happened.

H.

[SA Friday]

Somewhere in there your brain was wandering around

Nothing worse than one's brain sprouting nikes and wandering off

[boo radley]

Boo,

Try this on for size [....]

What I'm saying is that you missed the shot between remembering the sight picture and remembering the plate not falling. Somewhere in there your brain was wandering around, and this is when the shooting happened.

H.

That seems pretty accurate. I'm afraid "brain wandering around" might be a nice euphemism for some combination of flinching/blinking/jerking the trigger/or otherwise failing to see the sight lift.

I found a range that has a plate rack. It's a bit expensive to shoot there, but I shot some steel for a few practice sessions, and pretty much have a healthy respect for the damn targets, and am not terribly happy with my times or efficiency. Worse, studying the timer shows how brutal making up a miss really is, so now I REALLY know I need to go 1-for-1 on steel.

As you, Brian, and Dale suggest, it's very possible to miss despite having a crisp sight picture, initially. In fact, I discovered sometimes I could shoot the rack clean without a great sight picture, provided I kept the gun on the plate, and had good trigger control. But it's awful easy to miss that first plate....

[Flexmoney]

I used to post this often enough....it's been a while...

With a properly working gun, it is impossible to miss as long as the sights are alinged with the target as the bullet leaves the barrel.