IPSC Shotgun Divisions - The Future

[Neil Beverley]

I responded to a Topic in another Forum and raised the subject of Divisions for IPSC Shotgun.

All IPSC rules are being revised again and for shotgun I’m trying to consider the requirements/wishes of all Regions to try to achieve rules that we can all work with.

It is clear that there are a number of differing views about Divisions but at the same time the differences don’t seem to be so far adrift as to not be sortable.  There may need to be some compromises but hopefully nothing too drastic.

However, it does seem clear that at least most would agree that there should be an Open Division which allows just about anything and certainly Optical/Electronic sights and speedloaders fall within this division.

At the other end of the scale it is apparent that there needs to be a division that doesn’t allow Optical/Electronic sights or speedloaders and restricts the round capacity.  In this division again the consensus seems to be that compensators and the porting of barrels shouldn’t be allowed.  Anything else?

The total number of rounds seems to be more widely interpreted and this needs some more consideration.  

I’m curious as to why, for the US Standard Division, you have opted for 9 rounds.  Certainly one other region lobbied very hard for 8 rounds on the basis that this was the capacity limited for a great many guns ex factory.  My own experience supports this view.  The rule book for 2003 has been changed to restrict the capacity of Limited Division to a max of 7 rounds loaded in the mag tube.  This avoids any possible conflicts if a Condition 3 start and also avoids an artificial restriction on anyone with an MI Bennelli which can take 9 rounds with only 7 in the mag.  Was it set just as an arbitrary figure or was there some “method in the madness”.

Likewise for Open Division.  Why 11 rounds max?  Was this just to level the playing field for new guns bearing in mind the 10 shot mag restrictions I believe you have?  The problem with this for International rules is that “Open Division” becomes no longer truly “open”.

With the exception of the number of rounds US Open and IPSC Open are near as dammit the same.  Likewise for US Standard and IPSC Limited (2003) except that IPSC has split pumps/slide action from semi-autos.  Any thoughts on this?  Also no box mag guns (detachable mags) in IPSC Limited Division.

Do you think that it is the right thing to do to restrict the number of rounds simply to level the playing field?  There is a great discussion elsewhere in these Forums about the sport of practical shooting versus the practicality of shooting.  The latter of course being the foundation for the sport.

I’ve been party to many a debate about the capacity issue for shotguns and the fairness of someone starting with 8 rounds in the gun v someone with 15 rounds and if speedloaders or detachable mags aren’t being used then the time issue for reloading is significant in deciding stage winners.

Restricting the overall length of the gun is arguably a more practical solution and creates a limit but has it’s own difficulties.

Regional laws add to the difficulty in creating universally acceptable rules.  Just take the situation between the US and the UK as an example.  In the US (please correct me if I’m wrong) you have a magazine restriction of 10 rounds max.  In the UK we can have a 20 round extended mag tube within UK laws.  In the US a short barrelled “combat” shotgun is legal and I believe some of you are using 18-20 inch barrels.  In the UK the legal minimum is 24inches, barrel lengths below this are classed as prohibited weapons and the penalty options include imprisonment.  Likewise the minimum overall length must be no less than 40 inches or again bye bye freedom.

In the UK at least Remington 1187s (the most popular gun for IPSC Shotgun in the UK) are generally only supplied as a standard 5 shot.  Why add a tube extension to 8 shot if 10,11,12,13 or 14 are also available.  The 5 shot magazine tube must be in the region of 16-18 inches short of the end of a 26" barrel.  Why not use this space practically?  My gun, an 1187, takes 12 rounds total (11+1) with cartridges 65mm in length.  The magazine tube extends less than half an inch beyond the end of the 26" barrel.

Small extensions beyond the end of the barrel are sensible to protect the barrel from taking knocks and also to help prevent a possible “mud plug” or similar when going prone.  Please consider the overall gun lengths below.  All were std out of the box ex-factory guns.

Remington 1187 with 26" barrel = 46" total

Remington 1100 with 28" barrel = 48.5" total

Winchester 1300 with 28" barrel = 49" total

Mossberg 500 with 28" barrel = 49.5" total

Benelli M1 with 26" barrel = 47" total

Now some competitors add up to 1" extra to the butt plate because they are tall or have long arms and see above about the justification for allowing some extension of the magazine tube beyond the end of the barrel.

If you look at the data above it can be seen that with 28" and 30" barrels and possibly with an increase in overall butt length the guns are only just below the set limit of 1320mm (52inches) which is why the current limit is set at this figure.

I offer the information above to try to give some background to the current position.  I’m sure we would all like to see one set of IPSC International rules.  Therefore any suggestions (polite ones preferred ) or general comments about this issue, or any other about the rules, will be very helpful as the process of developing the rules continues.

Over to you for thoughts/comments about Shotgun Divisions.  Thanks.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Neil,

As I recall, the capacity limits were set for Limited so the shooters with Benellis could use the round ont ehcarrier approach.  makes no big deal to me, unless someone starts setting up shotgun stages with nine-shot runs.

The limit on Open was more a matter of esthetics.  Some feel a 28" gun with a 15 shot tube looks goofy, and is too much not a practical shotgun.  I say Open should be Open, and if someone wants to try and negotiate a barricade with a shotgun 56" long, let them.

My feelings;

Open:  The sky's the limit.  No restriction on capacity, sights, porting, choke, reloading, etc.

Limited:  Capacity limit to ten; mag, carrier and chamber combined.  No optics.  No porting.  No reloading gizmos except some sort of larger button (1100) or sharp edge reduction (Mossberg autos).

If the match wants to rcognize pumps, fine, but no separate division for them.  (No one beats me with a pump, but I don't see enough shooters opting for it to make it a separate division.)  Unfortunately, that means we can't attract enough pump shooters to later make a division.

And for 3-gun matches we need some sort of scoring software method of dealing with mixed shooters.  That is, Open handgun, Limited shotgun, open rifle, etc.

[Wakal]

I, for one, am not particularly happy with the 10-round Open limitation.  Especially since they came up with that rule after I got my 21-shooter set up  

http://www.dreadnaught-industries.com/imag...s/USAS_race.JPG

It is only 38" overall...the down side is that it weighs about as much as a Buick.  Low recoil...yeah, that is the ticket...

Alex

[Flexmoney]

Wakal,

That shows some real inovation.    

[jhgtyre]

Wakal,

Cool looking gun!  What is it?

-jhgtyre

[Wakal]

That is a USAS-12 gas-operated semi-automatic 12-gauge shotgun.  The lower is set up like an AR (same grip, same shape/angle trigger, and with the mag catch and safety in the same place).  Takes either a 10-round stick mag or a 20-round drum.  Mine has a one-off machined and anodized aluminum sight rail mounted to the carry handle (thanks, Kelly!) and that silly Russian sight.

It does make up for my slow target-to-target splits with VERY fast reloads in long stages...and yes, I do have a more conventional shotgun (Winchester SX2 Practical) for Limited  :b

Alex

[Patrick Sweeney]

Didn't the ATF make those an evil, prohibited, and highly taxed engine of mass destruciton a few years ago?  Cool, where do I get one?

Actually, I shot one in select fire at Second Chance some years ago.  They were brand new, I borrowed a drum and three stick mags, loaded them with slugs and went off to shoot the BCBC with it in full auto.  My time was lousy, but that was due as much to the giggling I was doing as it was to the fact that I was hitting once on each two or three shot burst.

[jhgtyre]

Thanks Wakal!  It was killing me trying to figure out what that thing was.

-jhgtyre

[Neil Beverley]

Wahal - That looks like a serious bit of kit and a 12 gauge on full auto sounds like a whole lot of fun.  If only ..........

Patrick - Thanks for the input your comments have been noted.  The mixture of Divisions across the disciplines is going to be one of the hardest things to balance in a 3 gun match/tournament.

[Wakal]

Mine is only the boring semi-auto version...and  yes, it is a "destructive device" as is anything over .5" bore that is not "particularly suitable for sporting purposes".   Gilbert vs. US laid out the BATF position that ALL firearms over .5" bore diameter are legal at the whim of the BATF.  Duck hunting is a sport (?), skeet is a sport, but IPSC/IDPA/3-Gun/PPC/etc. are NOT sports.

Charming.

And I don't envy you...the fun of a guy with an Open pistol, iron sighted lever gun, and a pump shotgun arguing Divisions must be horrifying  

Alex

[Vince Pinto]

Neil,

The troops have wandered off on a tangent. Crack the whip! Yeee-haaaa.

[Neil Beverley]

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!

Vince is right guys.  As much fun as Wakal's toy obviously is it doesn't help with the task in hand.

I've read many criticisms in these Forums about various subjects, and often they are very justified.  I'm trying to give everyone the chance to stick their oar in early.  i.e.  Moan before the next set of rules is written instead of after!

Nobody can say I'm not trying, ..........................  very trying!  

Wakal - It may only be semi-auto ............ but boring????

[Wakal]

How about this?

OPEN

Rifle: power factor as listed now, any sights (including multiple setup, i.e. scope and dot), bipod, horse-drawn cart, etc

Shotgun: Any modifications (speed loader, big buttons/levers/etc.), any mag capacity, any sights/combination of sights

Pistol: as open

LIMITED

Rifle: power factor as now, no optics, no compensators beyond "as issued" birdcage flash hiders (that 1" by 3" rule seems to make sense, as it allowed the folks with M4geries to run with what they bought).

Shotgun: 9 rounds (in the gun) at any time, no speed loaders, no comps, no ports, no optics.

Pistol: Limited

Production:

Rifle: Oh boy, this is where my cleverness leaves me (and there wasn't much to start with).  Power factor as above, "as issued" configuration, no external modifications beyond recoil pads, no optics.

Shotgun: Pump, no more than six rounds in the shotgun at any time, no external modifications from factory-issue except recoil pad (can you tell I'm a wimp?).

Pistol: as Production

While I'd like to see a "military" class for ACOGs and the like, I'm cruel enough to only allow the matching pistols and shotguns.  An M4 carbine set up with an ACOG is workable, but an M9 and an Mossy 590 would be...interesting...next to a 15-round 1100 and an Open pistol   :b

Alex

[actionshooter]

I think Limited shotgun is fine,even going to 8 would be OK. But for open why the round restrictions,open is open right? I can see a max. lenght or better yet if someone wants a 3' extension put them in a 2'6" hallway

Steve

[Wakal]

Exactly..."fix" the weird shotgun configurations with stage designs.  A tight hallway for the long mag tubes, a low port for the freaks with mag-fed shotguns...

Alex

[Neil Beverley]

Alex

Thanks for the your ideas on Divisions - it all helps.  With the current state of play between handgun, SG and rifle I think I'm not going to worry too much about the name for any Divisions to start with as I don't want this to restrict any thinking on the subject. First I want to sort out what the Divisions should be then worry about what to call them. This particularly applies to Standard Division where you find that what's considered to be the standard division in one Region is NOT the standard division of another region. Sometimes I think it would be easier just to call them X, Y or Z Division (or ABC).

I hear what both you and Steve are saying about "fixing" the "weird" guns and a few years ago you might have found me agreeing with you but I see no problem with them now.

We had a similar situation when the first red-dot sights appeared on top of handguns and suddenly a great many letter boxes appeared in stages. There was a real fear that these "race" guns would mess up the sport.

But now we have separately scoring Divisions why worry.  All the "weird" guns are scored together in the current "Open Division".  Providing they are scored and factored in a separate division does it matter?  I say this as someone who was seriously worried about the impact of long mag tubes, box mags and speed loaders.  But these are all moved into "Open" so what's the big deal.  It's not what I want to shoot but why stop others who want to go that way?

In my opinion "Open" Division is the easiest to define - just about anything goes. The interesting stuff is defining the other Divisions.

What I really want to achieve with the next set of rules is to give as many as possible what they want and not make it too painful for others that may need to change. I really don't think we're that far apart and by pooling our knowledge we should be able to cater for the majority.  I'm starting to form the framework of an idea for a simple change to the 2003 IPSC Shotgun Limited Divisions and these are already very close to the USPSA Standard Division.  I'll post something on this soon.

The nightmare to sort is which Division per discipline goes with which in a multi gun tournament. This is so fraught with problems.  Fortunately for me it's not my primary responsibility although I will have some input on it.

How about a 2'6" corridor with a low letter box to shoot through? This sorts the long tubes, box mags and red-dots all in one go?    

Just kidding!  Let everyone enjoy their shooting.  We're all still shooters regardless of the kit we use.

[kellyn]

I don't think stage design can ever really penalize long tube shotgunners.  The advantage of the increased number of rounds is just to great.  You can wield a pike-like shotgun much faster than you can load a shorter gun.  Plus you can't really expect ever shotgun stage to be in a super-tight hallway.

A couple of years ago, Jim Clark and Jake Kempton were using 15 round shotguns at MM3G.  There were some stages with tight shots, lots of barricades, hallways etc.  It did not matter.  They kicked ass because they could manuever faster than anyone else could load.  

I personally like a 10 (+1) limit on open shotguns.  Sure, I already have a 13 rounder for my 1187 but it is VERY difficult for the new shooter to obtain such equipment.  Should international IPSC rules be bound by silly U.S. laws?  That I don't know.  Nevertheless, unlimited mag capacity for open shotguns in the U.S. will leave open to a small cadre of people who already have the equipment.  Maybe a length requirement is the way to go.

Plus 15 round shotguns (even 10 rounders) just look plain silly.

[actionshooter]

Is it even possible to have international rules? With so many different lands with different laws,it almost seems impossible. Its hard enough with 50 states!

I don't really have a problem with long tubes what does bother me a tad are the guys w/ really long tubes,loading short rounds and getting 20+ rounds. Thats Silly!!

Steve

[Neil Beverley]

Steve - I'm convinced that we can achieve a set of rules that will be accepable for all. I don't think we're that far off now.  What is important is that I get the feedback that I'm getting now so that it can all be considered.

I recently heard from A N Other about some really short "Aquila" buckshot and my edited reply to their email is quoted below:

"In my earlier email I failed to reply to your comment about short cartridges.  Basically my view on this is why ever not?  If the cartridge functions and puts the target down then it’s “practical”.  Short cartridges giving extra capacity in the gun are particularly “practical”.  This comes with one proviso – they must be up to the job in hand!  Some people thought I was mad to include a power factor for shotgun (520) but it does stop cartridge power drifting too far away from practicality and should prevent silly light loads being introduced.  If you are concerned about the Aquila buckshot then check to see if it makes factor.  If it does then great if not then a competitor’s scores are removed from the match and the problem goes away.  I’d be interested to learn the result.

Again I say that personally I would love us to adopt a stance that states “X rounds loaded” but I’m tasked with writing rules for IPSC and I feel that this isn’t the right way “practically”.  As I said in my earlier email I try to write IPSC rules rather than my rules.  This particular issue is a bit of a conflict because I think that the “no. loaded” approach is actually better for the sport, it levels the playing field, it’s just that IPSC hasn’t accepted this concept yet and doesn't like "impractical" rules.  I guess if it was easy everyone would be doing it. "

Does anyone have the stats for these short cartridges?  The power factor requirement of 520 equates to a cartridge with an ounce of shot at 1200 pfs or the equivalent.

Elsewhere in these Forums one of the first threads that I got involved with was about whether buchshot should be included in a match at all. The comments were concerned about recoil.  I would suspect that these short cartridges are light to shoot.

For 2003 IPSC has 4 Divisions.  "Modified" the middle division at the moment, restricts the max length of the gun to 1320mm  (52 inches), see my initial posting in this thread as to the statistics behind this.

I don't know why I am so surprised that so many of us have been unhappy with the length of gun/number of rounds issue.  I only wish I had this info 2 years ago. The feedback at that time was that a great many shooters in the US were choosing to guns with long tubes.  In fact I even received an email from someone in Scandinavia, who had just returned from shooting in the States, expressing horror at such a thing.  

Against this background the 2002 IPSC rules were written to specifically include long guns.  It would have been much easier then to have restricted capacity at that time.  I believe that it was only last year that the capacity restriction was introduced in the US. Is this correct?

[Neil Beverley]

I've had a thought of a possible alternative solution for consideration.  

How about instead of setting a max number of rounds or a max overall length of gun instead we set a max length of barrel including any compensators/muzzle breaks.

If this was set at around 720mm it would allow standard barrels up to 28 inches.

Then we stipulate that the mag tube must not exceed barrel length of any barrel being used by more than say 25mm (1 inch).

This places a restriction in a more practical manner.  There's only a handful of competitors with 30 inch barrels out there that I'm aware of.

From my rough and quick calculations I estimate that an 11-87 with a 24" barrel, 1 inch extension tube + std cartridges = about 11 cartridges.

Does this have any merit to consider taking it further?

(Edited by Neil Beverley at 9:29 am on Nov. 5, 2002)

[RIIID]

In reguards to the measurement of barrel length don't include comps/muzzle brakes. It opens the door to extremely long  comps to get longer mag tubes. I shoot a 28" barrel with a 12 shot tube(2.75" shells 12+1) it extends 3" beyond the barrel. With a Briley comp/ choke tube the mag tube extends 1.25"  beyond the end. If  I put a 30" barrel on  the mag tube would extend 1"  beyond the end of the barrel. Now if I put a long comp on  skys the limit. When Mike V. enacted the 10+1 in open I suggested  alternitives to the restriction. Everything I suggested was wrong and his way was the only way. But that's a whole other story.

Rich

[Neil Beverley]

Rich - I think you mis-understand my suggestion slightly.

I'm suggesting a max length of barrel of 720 mm (28.34 inches) inclusive of any fitted compensators.

Add an extra 1 inch to this for the mag tube for a max total of 745mm (29.34 inches) measured from the frame.

This sets an absolute limit without anyone being able to get creative as you suggest with long comps.  In turn this creates an capacity limit subject to cartridge length.

[RIIID]

I see said the blind carpenter as he picked up his hammer and saw.

With that rule my tube would be in violation by .66 of an inch. I would suggest the tube length couldn't exceed 30" from the receiver. Actually my tube measures 30 1/16" from the reciever. It 's a Choate tube not homemade. The argument I got for tube length restrictions was," What do you do about a shooter who shows up with a 20 round box mag"?

Rich

[Neil Beverley]

Rich - If I divorce myself from the rule writing process and simply put on my competitor hat then I would have to say that the 11 rounds restriction solves a lot of issues and levels the playing field.  Personally I don't like the impact of box mags on the sport.  I even confess to not liking speedloaders being used.  But these are personal preferences.

A 20 round box mag changes the whole face of the sport unfortunately and the discipline becomes a test of gun capacity, not shooting ability.  I started in the sport in 1986 with an out of the box Mossberg with a C-lect choke 25" barrel (8 round capacity).

When I put on my rules hat I feel I have an obligation to find a "practical" solution to the problem.  Would it be right to exclude box mags?  Should we artificially restrict capacity?  Surely this is what "Open" division is all about.

I have to say that if every IPSC Region, and IPSC itself, were to accept 11 rounds loaded as a maximum it would solve a lot of difficulties.  I can certainly canvas this conceptually.

One of the great things about these Forums is that people can air their views and I'm finding it very useful.

[Neil Beverley]

I've been following the replies in another thread about magazine capacities for pistols and the law which may sunset in 2004.

Presumably this would apply to shotguns as well?

If the law goes would it change anyone's views on the current USPSA restriction in Open of 11 rounds?