IPSC Minimum Calibre

[Detlef]

ours, yes, but not Barnhart's, Jarret's, Strader's, TT's etc asf.

I think you are wrong assuming that the market would not react. If IPSC lowers the min caliber for major PF, in less than 5 y those of us who haven't left in disgust will all shoot the min caliber.

*Making new customers* is not equivalent to *having more customers*...

--D. (will 7.62x25 fit in my 38sup magazines...?)

(Edited by Detlef at 4:59 pm on Dec. 4, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

I don't know what we are talking about ithe the various cartridges...

But, if I can get even one extra round in the gun by going to some other caliber...consider it done!

[Vince Pinto]

Detlef,

Dude, this thread is not talking about lowering the Major power factor. That's already been done recently, and for good reasons.

Here we're talking about lowering the minimum calibre from 9mm.

Now please switch back to unleaded coffee ......... then pass the donuts.

Flex,

Does this mean you only shoot 9mm now?

[Detlef]

Vince,

Que? "...if IPSC lowers the min caliber for major PF". Who said anything about lowering PF? Need a larger font??? Reading glasses? An open mind? Nah.... (joke alert!)

Not every one, but the vast majority of replies was No! We've described to you why. What you do with this is up to you of course.

If this is really on the table (as you seem to imply) I suggest we let our Regional Directors know how we feel about it. I for my part will drop Mike a line. maybe spook can work on Kees.

--D.

(Edited by Detlef at 6:21 pm on Dec. 4, 2002)

[EricW]

FWIW, I think it would be interesting to drop the min. caliber to 7.62.  Maybe the Chinese will start opening up a can of whoopass on everybody after they redefine what constitutes "practical."  It could be a revolution in the making.  Who knows...

[Flexmoney]

Does this mean you only shoot 9mm now?

???  

I have been known to shoot Limited in Minor.  If I could get an extra round or two in the gun, that would save me from having to reload on many a stage.  And...that is worth a second or more (even while reloading on the move).  

That is an equipment advantage...let the equipment race begin!!!  

Seriously.  What is wrong with letting the local Director grant shooter in these areas an exemption to the rule?  As for the World Shoot and such...if the shooters can afford to travel to Ecuador, then they ought to be able to aford a 9mm, right?

[Vince Pinto]

EricW,

I do believe the Chinese will indeed be able to open cans of whoopass, sooner or later.

IPSC China was only admitted as a provisional IPSC region in September 2002, but they held their first Level III match in October. As soon as they get some decent guns and top level coaching, the sky's the limit.

Flex,

On reviewing this thread, it appears I missed your question "Are we assembled for political reasons or for competitive reasons?".

Of course we are indeed assembled for competitive sporting purposes but, if we don't continually strengthen our political position, we won't have a sport.

[EricW]

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Quote: from Vince Pinto on 7:07 pm on Dec. 4, 2002

I do believe the Chinese will indeed be able to open cans of whoopass, sooner or later.

---

It'll be a hoot to see what happens when people with a culture of self-discipline really attack IPSC.  If what the Japanese are doing (mainly with airsofts) is any indication, the future will surely see the sport dominated by the Far East and Indonesia.  Hopefully we lazy Americans will be smart enough to step up to the plate rather than piss and moan about how unfair it is and go start a new sport that flatters ourselves.

Vince,

What's the scoop on Russia and other former Sov. Block republics?  I know they're struggling, but are we hearing any serious interest in IPSC out of them?

E

[Fossil]

Vince,

What is the reason the P.F was lowered and what's so good about it?

It seems that recently, the I.P.S.C/U.S.P.S.A powers that be are conducting themselves more and more like politicians instead of shooters.

It appears that you are missing more then just a question.

What if I may ask, is the political position of I.P.S.C or U.S.P.S.A  for that matter, please do elaborate.

[Duane Thomas]

"It'll be a hoot to see what happens when people with a culture of self-discipline really attack IPSC.  If what the Japanese are doing (mainly with airsofts) is any indication, the future will surely see the sport dominated by the Far East and Indonesia."

Never! I say thee nay! Not because we're just so goshdarn wonderful, but I have to ask, and this is a serious question, I'm not trying to be a smartass: how many of these countries trust their citizens to own firearms, and would allow a sport in their countries that allows those citizens to become highly proficient in their use?

[omnia1911]

I am sympathetic to the fact that certain countries won't let their civilian populations possess "military" cartridges, but IPSC was founded as a Combat Shooting sport. It has done a considerable amount of drifting from the vision that Jeff Cooper had, and we continually struggle to adhere to the word "Practical" in our namesake. The idea of lowering the minimum caliber is an idea that will continue this erosion of our core values as an organization.  

We are beginning to settle into the major changes that we underwent with the addition of the new divisions. We should avoid setting off another equipment race that the smaller calibers will inevitably bring, as happened with the 38super. Stability of the rules to create fair competition, reaching out to others in the firearm industries, and getting  politically connected to the legislative process to protect what we have, and to change what is necessary for our future should be our main focus.

The "Classic" target was our last major move to be accommodating the political realities in some countries, and is looked upon with disdain in some parts of the IPSC organization. The move to lower the minimum caliber to non-combat levels will be viewed in a similar manner. Do we really need that kind of controversy again?

How do we make all of our Regions full partners if we don't compete with the same equipment? How do we hold major matches in Regions that will give either the host country or the visiting competitor an advantage due to those equipment differences? These are legitimate questions, but even though membership growth is a worthy goal of any organization, it should never become a situation wherein the "tail wages the dog".

[spook]

Duane, I disagree with you. I think Americans have the "easiest" gun laws and the most trust by the government of all countries in the world (that have a government ). And the worldshoot results show that. Loots of american. The best shooter in the world though (and I am certain he is really THE best) is a French kid (OK so he's 22). I don't think it's a reason to be held back. My country has some of the tightest gun laws. Yet the number 5 world shoot contender shoots here and lives by those rules. Of course it's a PITA for us (the tight laws) but it will not hold us back.

Vince, thanks, I didn't know the rule changed.

BTW, I think you've got quite a lot of negative answers to your question. What are you going to do with the idea? Just curious.

Cheers.

(Edited by spook at 12:42 pm on Dec. 5, 2002)

[EricW]

---

Quote: from Duane Thomas on 8:48 pm on Dec. 4, 2002[brI have to ask, and this is a serious question, I'm not trying to be a smartass: how many of these countries trust their citizens to own firearms, and would allow a sport in their countries that allows those citizens to become highly proficient in their use?

---

Well....I think the times, they are a changin'.  Look at China.  I fully expected that Hong Kong would have been trashed and assimilated by the Communists.  But, you know what, the Chinese knew a good thing when they saw it and left well-enough alone.  China is really undergoing another cultural revolution of westernization as we speak.  No, Chinese citizens can't own guns right now, but who knows what'll happen in a decade or two?  Promoting IPSC is a tremendous opportunity to be the ambassadors of freedom in places we rarely get the chance.  Turning up our noses at this opportunity is a mistake.  We need to find a way to make it work.

E

[omnia1911]

Please don't interpret my last post as "turning up my nose" at other countries. 3.3.1 gives them the opportunity to play the game under their country's firearm restrictions. I happen to think that lowering the minimum caliber sets a bad precedent. How far are you willing to compromise? Will it be .22LR next? Maybe Airsoft?

Rather than draw a line in the sand, only to be blown away during the next strong wind, sometimes you need to set the line in concrete so that the shooters in the future can easily find it, and understand why it was put there. JMO

[jhgtyre]

The repetitive mentioning of .22lr in this post is ridiculous.  There is absolutely no justification for comparing the inclusion of combat worthy rounds like 7.62x25, the biggest real criticism of which is that it damages steel plates, with lowering ourselves to shooting pop guns.

-jhgtyre

[EricW]

" I happen to think that lowering the minimum caliber sets a bad precedent. How far are you willing to compromise? Will it be .22LR next? Maybe Airsoft?"

No, but I think we can make some cartridge specific exemptions for certain regions.  Additionally, we could write a rule for those calibers to where they couldn't have a capacity advantage over 9mm.  Put a ten cartride limit on for 7.62 shooters.... or...something else.  I don't have the dimensions for Sov. Block cartridges in front of me, so I don't know what the full implications are from a capacity standpoint.  Regardless, I think people could be a little less pissy and try to find a way to be inclusive rather than exclusive.  It's not like the Chinese, et. al. are trying to pull a fast one here.  They simply don't have access to 9mm.  Can't we just be a little accomodating and craft a rule to allow them to shoot the predominately available caliber until that situation changes?  (And it will, once the presence of IPSC creates the demand.)  Put a sunset clause on the rule if need be.  Re-evaluate the results after 5 years.  

[omnia1911]

We can't have 2 sets of Division requirements, one for those shooting the 7.62x25mm, and one for everyone else. It won't work if IPSC restricts the use of the 7.62x25mm to certain Regions. If this cartridge will give these Regions a capacity advantage, how can they be invited to compete against other Regions who don't have access to this cartridge? It won't work if IPSC restricts the magazine capacity of those using the 7.62x25mm. If we restrict the 7.62x25mm capacity to 10 rounds, we are handicapping those Regions who show up at a match where others are competing in the Division with highcap mags. It won't work if IPSC attaches a sunset clause to the use of the 7.62x25mm. Who is going to invest in guns and gear for the 7.62x25mm knowing that it will become useless for competition if the rule sunsets.

We have the option of allowing it for everyone in IPSC, which will set off an equipment race, or using 3.3.1 to let the individual Regions handle their issue of local firearm restrictions.

[Vince Pinto]

Wow. You guys have been busy while I was taking a nap! OK, here goes:

IPSC Russia are doing just great. They were only admitted to IPSC 3 years ago, but they're holding regular Level III matches and they are a rising star in IPSC. Check out their website.

BTW, we also just provisionaly admitted IPSC Georgia and are processing other former Soviet Bloc nations.

IPSC Japan sent their first team to a World Shoot in South Africa. They can't own guns very easily yet so they need to continually travel overseas for training and match experience. However we're working on a plan to make guns more accessible to civilians, but I can't mention details publicly yet.

Guns in China are generally all owned by the State, but shooters have ready access to them for training and competition. China does very well in Olympic shooting and they are unbelievably positive about IPSC. We'll probably start a big drive with the Police and Military first, then gradually get more civilians shooting.

We had the same experience in Sri Lanka 10 years ago, but now civilians make up 70% of the membership.

The lowering of Major PF was done for a number of reasons:

1) Competitors who reload don't need to "push the envelope" so hard;

2) Competitors who cannot reload can more easily buy factory ammo which makes Major;

3) Competitors who travel can usually order ammo at destination instead of doing battle with airlines which are becoming increasingly restrictive;

4) Less wear and tear on guns;

5) Less noise (equals happier RO's!).

If you don't like the Classic target, don't use it. Simple really. It's an option.

Prior to it's introduction, we had a number of regions modifying the Metric target to comply with National laws or sensitivities and these including cutting off the B Zone or having two B Zones.

The Classic was designed to be a "standard neutral" target, and it has been warmly embraced by 90% of our regions. I note it's also used in the USA, and Frank Garcia's match is a prominent example. Those who don't need to use it find it's still a nice way to restore accuracy to a sport which was becoming increasingly dominated by speed.

Yes, there were some negative replies here about lowering the minimum calibre, but this is only one of many avenues where I bounce ideas off peopel. BTW, do you guys know of any IPSC topic where we had unanimous consensus?

IPSC rules and regulations can never be "set in concrete". Not ever. It's a dynamic sport and a dynamic world and if we try to remain rigid, we'll die.

Anyway, I'll never be able to answer all your questions in this forum but I hope some of this information is useful. Frankly I could tell you guys much more, in much less time (and more freely), if we get together for a beer one day.

So, who's buying and where?

[omnia1911]

"IPSC rules and regulations can never be "set in concrete". Not ever. It's a dynamic sport and a dynamic world and if we try to remain rigid, we'll die."

My reference to a line in concrete was not about the rules in general, but was about the IPSC moniker of Speed, Power, and Accuracy.

IPSC uses the word "Practical" in its title. We have drifted far from that since the formation of this organization. I hear all the time, "Practical, what's practical about that gun, that holster, those tactics?". I don't want future shooters to hear a similar question of, "Power what's powerful about those whimpy calibers?". That may happen if we don't hold the line on 9mm as our minimum caliber.

IPSC not being about Speed, Power, and Accuracy is like Superman not being about Truth, Justice, and the American Way........well, sort of.  :-)

[Vince Pinto]

Well since you brought up Superman, I thought you'd might like this:

IPSC President

Leaps tall buildings in a single bound.

Is more powerful than a locomotive.

Is faster than a speeding bullet.

Walks on water.

Gives policy to God.

IPSC General-Secretary

Leaps short buildings in a single bound.

Is more powerful than a switch engine.

Is just as fast as a speeding bullet.

Walks on the water if the sea is calm.

Talks with God.

IPSC Treasurer

Leaps short buildings with a running start and favorable winds.

Is almost as powerful as a switch engine.

Is faster than a speeding BB.

Walks on water in an indoor swimming pool.

Talks with God if permission granted.

IROA President

Barely clears a wooden hut.

Loses tug-of-war with a Volkswagen.

Can sometimes fire a speeding bullet.

Swims well.

Is occasionally addressed by God.

IROA Vice-President

Makes high marks on the wall when trying to leap a wooden hut.

Is run over by a locomotive.

Can sometimes handle a gun without inflicting self injury.

Dog paddles.

Talks to animals.

IPSC Regional Directors

Run into buildings.

Recognize locomotives two times out of three.

Are never issued ammunition.

Can't stay afloat even with a life preserver.

Talk to the walls.

IPSC Member

Falls over doorsteps when trying to enter buildings.

Says: "Look at the choo-choo".

Wets himself with a water pistol.

Plays in mud puddles.

Mumble to each other.

IPSC Secretary

Lifts tall buildings and walks under them.

Kicks locomotives off the tracks.

Catches speeding bullets in his teeth and eats them.

Freezes water with a single glance.

He is God.

Anonymous.

[jhgtyre]

With 11.7 grains of Accurate #9 and a 110gr. bullet you should get a vel. of 1688 according to Accurates published data for the 7.62x25.  That is a power factor of 185.

As to getting more bb's in your blaster this image shows that there is very little difference in case diameter at the base.  Please note that the images are not to scale and that the dimension should be compared based upon the printed data not by visual comparison.

I suppose some enterprising loon might make an STI in 7.62x25 that gets one extra round in the mag but I doubt it.

-jhgtyre

[EricW]

jhgtyre,

Awesome post!  The first true clarity in eight pages.

[omnia1911]

We haven't heard fron Vince yet as to whether allowing just the 7.62x25mm Tokarev in the door would solve the problem that he sees in some Regions, rather than lowering the entire minimum caliber.

Are we going to have to allow the 30 Mauser also, since it is nearly indentical to the 7.62x25mm Tokarev?

Does Vince want the cartridge to score major?

Is this cartridge going to damage the club's steel?

Is this cartridge going to allow an extra round to be stuffed into the mag?

Will the guns using this cartridge pass the Appendix E requirements?

Finally, and most importantly, who is going to buy me a new overlay :-), if this idea passes?

[jhgtyre]

[not attempting to speak for Vince mode]

---

A couple of pages back in this thread Vince wrote:

"Take a look at the revised IPSC rules, which now specifically refer to "cartridge case / bullet diameter" in Appendix E. We missed changing it in 5.2.6.1, but it's been noted for the next revision.

---

Sounds like a specific cartridge case with a specific bullet diameter can be listed as acceptable without making just the bullet diameter legal.

[/not attempting to speak for Vince]

-ld

[Vince Pinto]

Jhgtyre,

Thanks for an excellent graphic. I'm now convinced the brouhaha about capacity advantage has just been thrown out the door.

Omnia1911,

Yes, as indicated in my original post, 7.62x25mm is the calibre which has been most requested of IPSC but I honestly don't know whether any consideration of that particular calibre would (or should) include the 30 Mauser or others.

However as we now specify 9x19mm, it would only require us to state a revised minimum of, say, 7.62x25mm.

Of course if this calibre was approved, then the guns using it must comply with all the Division requirements, including any minimum calibers or bullet weights to make Major.

Scoring overlay? I'd be delighted to send you a set, but the ones available from the USPSA store already include 7.62mm. Only $1.50 for 2 pieces. Cheap!