xcount Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Is sweeping yourself with an unloaded gun unsafe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 There are a couple rules rules of gun handling being broken here, Treat all guns as being loaded. Never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy. Most gun accidents are with "unloaded" guns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 The answer is "No", as explained by BSeevers. I'm just curious about what prompts the question. Has it been an issue at a match or something? Was there a contentious RO ruling about it? Someone you know taking up a stupid hobby? DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Something deep down inside of me tells me it is just plain bad news to ever sweep myselp with a gun even if I know it is unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Benzick Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Xcount, It sounds to me as if your refering to unsafe gun handling rules IE. getting Dq'd if you sweep yourself with an unloaded gun. Therefore, I beleive the rules state that if you sweep yourself iduring the load and make ready phase or while rehostering after unloading and showing clear you can expect a warning from the RO. If you sweep yourself during the course of fire you can be DQ'd. I don't have my rule book with me but that's how I remember it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 I don't recall the sweeping rule stating that the gun has to be loaded. You sweep, you DQ. Correct me please if you can find a rule staing the pistol must be loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Sweeping at anytime is a DQ offence, subject to the following exceptions: Rule 10.3.7 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping) other than while drawing or re-holstering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Vince: How about sweeping the RO when a competitior loads or reholsters after showing clear? I have noticed that some of the forward cant carry holsters being used in production cause the pistol to be aimed at the lower extremities of the RO from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 Ron, Good question. I don't know for USPSA, but IDPA specifically addresses this, somewhere. Basically, their opinion is it's the ROs fault for standing where the muzzle would point at him when the shooter draws/holsters. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryRM 18 Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 In my mind this is one of the contradictions of the rules. The bullet that may get you on the draw or reholster and be legal, is just as painfull as the one you get opening a door and sweeping that hand, which is illegal. I agree that pointing a gun at yourself is not desirable, but it is your body! These are absolutes, it is either safe or unsafe, not with qualifying exceptions. You can't be a bit pregnant! As an RO you don't put yourself where the competitor may point a gun at you, if they do, early bath! If it is the RO who body sweeps the muzzle, he is not doing things right. He may need an early bath! DVC. Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 21, 2003 Share Posted February 21, 2003 OK, here's my point, we allow gear that has the potential of getting the RO shot in the family jewels (literally) if he stands behind the competitor on the strong side. Traditionally, this is where the RO positions himself on the buzzer. I simply stand on the left side of the competitor. A forward cant holster, especially behind the point of the hip will violate the 180 every time the competitor draws. I am not interested in a philosophical debate because we all know that everyone is responsible for safety. What I want to know is how do IPSC rules specifically address this issue? I suppose I could write to John, but I thought Vince or one of you folks might know the "legalistic" answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcount Posted February 22, 2003 Author Share Posted February 22, 2003 Let me re-phrase the question........ Is pointing an unloaded gun at a part of your body unsafe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 It is impossible. The gun is always loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Almost everybody that shoots someone else by accident states. "I thought it wasn't loaded" Treat all guns as if they are loaded. It might save a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 No, pointing an unloaded gun at your body is not unsafe. So, what's the follow-up question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Hello Vince, the follow up is< does it get your butt DQed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Quote: from Vince Pinto on 12:30 pm on Feb. 21, 2003 Sweeping at anytime is a DQ offence, subject to the following exceptions: Rule 10.3.7 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping) other than while drawing or re-holstering. Vince, my rulebook states "Allowing the muzzle of a LOADED handgun....." under 10.3.7. Is this one of the changes in the new IPSC rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Brian, Yes, we removed the word "loaded" in the latest version of the IPSC rulebook. This arose from a case where a competitor had a squib load and, believe it or not, looked down the muzzle of his gun during a COF to see if his barrel was blocked. Although he had removed his magazine and locked back the slide was irrelevant. Seeing a competitor peer down the business end of his gun during a COF is not a pretty picture and has no place in IPSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Quote: from Ron Ankeny on 2:01 pm on Feb. 21, 2003 Vince: How about sweeping the RO when a competitior loads or reholsters after showing clear? I have noticed that some of the forward cant carry holsters being used in production cause the pistol to be aimed at the lower extremities of the RO from time to time. I think the rule regarding Holster angles covers this. 5.3.6 Competitors shall not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing: 5.3.6.4 A holster with the muzzle of the handgun pointing farther than 1 meter from the competitor's feet while standing relaxed. Additionally if you Sweep an RO chances are you just broke the 180. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 kaiserb: Thank you very much. I missed the rule when I looked in the book. Vince has a good point. One could argue that an unloaded gun does no harm. I suppose a couple of guys could sit around and play Russian Roulette with an unloaded revolver and no harm would come of it. So, which one of you wants to go first?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Quote: from Ron Ankeny on 8:24 am on Feb. 22, 2003 Vince has a good point. One could argue that an unloaded gun does no harm. I suppose a couple of guys could sit around and play Russian Roulette with an unloaded revolver and no harm would come of it. So, which one of you wants to go first?. Ron Good one. Its "unloaded" right? We have had plenty of people killed locally doing that. I know the rules. But refuse to budge a bit on common sense gun handling safety. Kind of scary we have to write rules for people who look down their barrel during a course of fire. You know it might be a good example of "culling" the herd though. Just Kidding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Quote: from Vince Pinto on 11:14 pm on Feb. 21, 2003 Yes, we removed the word "loaded" in the latest version of the IPSC rulebook. Vince, I completely agree with that rule change. Although, it sure would be nice if everyone used a little good old-fashioned, 'common sense'. So in answer to the original post, "sweeping with an unloaded gun" is a DQ under IPSC rules, but NOT a DQ under USPSA rules. Agreed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted February 22, 2003 Share Posted February 22, 2003 Brian, If we could rely on commonsense, the rulebook would reduce by 60%, as would most of our respective national laws. Sadly the majority of rules (and laws) are written for a minority of damn fools. And yes, you are correct that sweeping with an "unloaded" gun is a DQ offence under IPSC rules but not (yet?) under USPSA rules. However given the fantastic work all of us achieved together in Orlando recently, I believe the gap between IPSC and USPSA rules has narrowed by such an extent that it's possible, by this time next year, for us to have a common rulebook. No guarantees, but the signs are very, very positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muser Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Quote: from Vince Pinto on 10:31 am on Feb. 22, 2003 However given the fantastic work all of us achieved together in Orlando recently, I believe the gap between IPSC and USPSA rules has narrowed by such an extent that it's possible, by this time next year, for us to have a common rulebook. No guarantees, but the signs are very, very positive. Whoohoo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Common sense? in USPSA and IPSC...Where? Someone once told me IPSC stood for Intelligent People Squabling Constantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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