What Do We Want Revolver Division To Be?

[10mmdave]

OK, so does this work for you????

So, let's take this as a start and see what you all think. We have got to have rules. Shoot what you brung is not rules. The modifications I have made seem to address all the points discussed including lighter and heavier barrels. Rules state same length NOT same weight.

Now make your changes or agree with what is written. I don't really care what happens, I just bought a 9MM for production just in case this all goes into the proverbial water closet.

Regards,

PS: HEY MOONEY, I may want some of that 9 back

Sorry RGS but a lot of the ambiguity is still there....

If 18 deals with any thing that speaks about prototypes then this can and will

be applied to a revo that is slightly different (been there, been bit on the ass by it)

As I read it this rule could disqualify any barrel heavier than stock.

19.3 should be deleted, this leaves a host of infractions up to the given MD at the given

match as to what is and what is not a competitive advantage. This one too has been

quoted as a "catch all" when a condition to disqualify can't be found.

And ya know, I just read the rules for the other divisions and there's no rule like 19.3 ??

And please, don't "take your ball and go shoot your 9"

As the rules are currently interperted both John and I have changed back to "legal" 610's,

we didn't leave the greatest division there is in USPSA

I'll try and come up with something later from all this, or actually cut & paste stuff from what's

already been posted, it's all here, just need to get in to a readable format.

[Carmoney]

Take a look at the US Revo Division rules at US Appendix D10 in the rulebook.

My proposal is pretty simple: Eliminate Special Conditions 18 and 19 altogether. Leave everything else alone.

Sounds close Mike, but rule 17 was brought up in my discussion with John A,

remove "except prototypes" in section 17 and maybe even the "OFM" part ??

OK, everybody hold on now. The idea is to remove silly potential restrictions that don't matter and will only serve to turn away potential shooters, and leave the potential for controversy down the line. Dave and I almost had that figured out, but now we've got 14 different versions floating around.

So how's this:

US APPENDIX D10 US Revolver Standard Division

1 Minimum power factor for Major 165

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) / 19mm (0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No

7 Maximum handgun size No

8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, Maximum of 6 fired before reload.

10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment No

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

Special conditions:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired

before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements

above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

(Rule 6.2.5.1: However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements

of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components) available to the general public is permitted.

18.--19. [DELETED]

20. “Self-loading” revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

THERE!! DONE!! Now go vote YES or NO on my other thread.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Gary, why shoot anything other than what you have been?

{SNIP}

Hey, for that matter, I even beat Dave P. with a 5" 610. HI DAVE!

{SNIP}

John,

I have had problems at a couple major IPSC matches with ROs that just plain don't like revolvers.

Too many people read this board and now the spotlight is on the Revolver rules.

So, what will happen?? Hopefully, nothing. I am not new to controversy and I keep the cash for arbitration in my range bag. (If I see you going through the pockets you better duck) I am also a black and white kind of person. No gray in my life (just balding) I like to see it in writing so there are no questions. If it says in black and white I can change a barrel, no question, I can change it. If it says I can chamfer my cylinder or change my cylinder, where is the room for interpretation??

As for your barrel John, as a RO I see nothing wrong with it either per the rules as currently written. With no disrespect meant to Mr Amidon, he is wrong. I also feel if there was a question at a match, you would win in arbitration.

Now to address both you and your underling Dave (couldn't resist), I have shot revolvers since 1975. I have competed in one form or another (although not real well) since 1979. Every time someone screws with the rules in any sport like this, the sport suffers. Take a look at the most recent IDPA changes for revolver. The sport suffered. I don't care what my friend Bones says, it suffered.

I shoot for the pure enjoyment I get out of it and no other reason. If I am not having fun, you will see me walk away. I can be miserable working and making money rather than miserable and spending money.

As to my comments about Single stack and Production, I have a classification in all but Open. (I probably never will either) I prefer to shoot a revolver and most likely will continue to shoot revolver. BUT, if some rule monger makes my life miserable at a particular club, I will either shoot the 9MM in production, the 627 in limited 10, the 1911 in Limited 10, or go singlestack. I refer back to my desire to have fun.

As for the "Prototype" in the rules. Basic design is basic design by any manufacturer. If Smith and Wesson comes out with a 62560 IPSC Revolver and produces 6, distributes them to 3 shooters that is a prototype. Randy Lee's "Frankengun" is a prototype (he made that statement).

The express rule allowing a change in barrel is pretty clear. How does that now become a "Prototype"? The rules allow the change for a barrel of OFM length.

Too much is being read into this by too few people and too many "Waht ifs" are surfacing. Arbitration is the way to handle that problem that is why it is in the rules.

The more that is in writing, the more problems you are going to see. By changing what is there to make it more to the liking of the majority, we do ourselves a better service and do not have to totally retrain every RO in the country. With too many changes, there will be confusion. I know about confusion, my head hurts already and I kind of know where you guys are headed.

See you in Harvard, I have to step on out of this as I am at the point I am just restating what I have said since page 1.

One question to you John. Does Dave carry your bag now??????

Sorry to be so long winded. I have to get back to my billing software.

Gary

[hdgun]

I guess I can see where you comming from. Especially with the IDPA statement.

"One question to you John. Does Dave carry your bag now??????" laugh.gif

I'm trying, but he just won't do it!!

Take a look at the US Revo Division rules at US Appendix D10 in the rulebook.

My proposal is pretty simple: Eliminate Special Conditions 18 and 19 altogether. Leave everything else alone.

Sounds close Mike, but rule 17 was brought up in my discussion with John A,

remove "except prototypes" in section 17 and maybe even the "OFM" part ??

OK, everybody hold on now. The idea is to remove silly potential restrictions that don't matter and will only serve to turn away potential shooters, and leave the potential for controversy down the line. Dave and I almost had that figured out, but now we've got 14 different versions floating around.

So how's this:

US APPENDIX D10 US Revolver Standard Division

1 Minimum power factor for Major 165

2 Minimum power factor for Minor 125

3 Minimum bullet weight No

4 Minimum bullet caliber / cartridge case length 9mm (0.354”) / 19mm (0.748”)

5 Minimum bullet caliber for Major No

6 Minimum trigger pull (see Appendix F2) No

7 Maximum handgun size No

8 Maximum magazine length Not applicable

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, Maximum of 6 fired before reload.

10 Max. distance of handgun and speed loaders from torso 50mm

11 Rule 5.2.3.1 applies Yes

12 Restriction on position of holster and other equipment No

13 Optical/electronic sights permitted No

14 Compensators permitted No

15 Ports permitted No

Special conditions:

16. No limit on cylinder capacity, however, a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired

before reloading. A competitor who fails to comply with any of the requirements

above will be subject to Rule 6.2.5.1

(Rule 6.2.5.1: However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements

of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available,

otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components) available to the general public is permitted.

18.--19. [DELETED]

20. “Self-loading” revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

THERE!! DONE!! Now go vote YES or NO on my other thread.

That looks to be about right.

But, Is it safe not to mention barrels at all? Just asking.

[Carmoney]

John, not sure what you mean. With my proposal, only ports and comps are prohibited (as to barrels). Anything else goes. If it's not specifically prohibited, then it's allowed.

[Gary Stevens]

Mike,

I like your proposed rules. I think they are clear, and achieve what, I think, you all want.

If you all settle on this, I will carry the water for you.

Gary

[Barrettone]

Mike,

I like your proposed rules. I think they are clear, and achieve what, I think, you all want.

If you all settle on this, I will carry the water for you.

Gary

I agree with Mikes recommendations.

Jeff

[hdgun]

John, not sure what you mean. With my proposal, only ports and comps are prohibited (as to barrels). Anything else goes. If it's not specifically prohibited, then it's allowed.

Kool, thats what I was looking for.

[Carmoney]

Mike,

I like your proposed rules. I think they are clear, and achieve what, I think, you all want.

If you all settle on this, I will carry the water for you.

Gary

Gary, thanks for taking an interest in this issue. If and when it becomes clear that we have a consensus here, we will gratefully accept your assistance.

Mike