No Shoot Madness

[Jim Norman]

Yes Neil, I said I could accept the two-hit rule in SG BECAUSE IT IS A MULTIPLE PROJECTILE LOAD. Next time you pull the trigger on a .40 cal hadgun and it fires 9 40 cal balls all from one shell I willaccept the two-hit rule for that. But so long as each round is a single projectile, I think we need to count all the holes.

BTW, We could make this arguement regarding SG.

All shells will be 9 pellet (or 12). A minimum of 4 hits are required to neutralize a target. all pellets count for score. Not difficult, all stages would have obviously a much higher point value, but that could be mitigated simply by asigning a number of points to the stage and awarding them on a percentage basis. 16 targets x 9 pellets is 151 holes x 5 points max for each is 755 points for the stage, however since that would skew the match, we address this by making the stage worth only 160 points, same as if it were a 32 round pistol COF. Score the stage, arrive at a HHF and then do the percentages, winner gets the 160, each succedding shooter gets his percentage of the HHF applied to the points available. Count all the NS hits and all the misses and award the requisite penalties.

See there is a way for those willing to look

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Moderator Note:

I removed some of the 'same-old-same-old' and the responses to it. (sorry for the newer guys that might be out of the loop)

Please note that the original question that started this thread has been covered. So, keep things fresh to keep the thread open.

[AikiDale]

Heck, if we were going to be practical, any NS hit would immediately DQ you from the match. That would be zero fun.

Maybe if we want to be real world practical NS hits would cost you money! Instead of a No Shoot we should just call it a Law Suit.

[Skywalker]

16 targets x 9 pellets is 151 holes

Hell, I'd rather not be the patcher of that match.

On second thoughts, I'd rather not shoot that match at all, it would take a couple of months to run all the squads through each stage...

BTW, nice set of new rules for SG ...

Edited May 17, 2006 by Skywalker

[caps]

We only count a maximum of two hits on a scoring target because it only takes two hits to neutralize it. Extra hits don't count.

We only count a maximum of two misses on a scoring target because any less than two hits means you didn't neutralize it. Extra misses don't count though.

This is why I think we only count a maximum of two hits on a hostage target because it only takes two hits to neutralize it. Extra hits also shouldn't count.

If we don't count every shot fired no matter what happens to it, we should make the same limits apply to all possible outcomes.

[Skywalker]

We only count a maximum of two misses on a scoring target because any less than two hits means you didn't neutralize it. Extra misses don't count though.

That's a perfect analogy!

I'd say to those advocating to count more than 2 NS hits on the same target that, along this line of thoughts, we should also award as many mikes on a scoring target as the shots fired towards it that missed it, not only two.

"You shot it, you deserve it", isn't it?

Edited May 17, 2006 by Skywalker

[Neil Beverley]

We only count a maximum of two misses on a scoring target because any less than two hits means you didn't neutralize it. Extra misses don't count though.

That's a perfect analogy!

I'd say to those advocating to count more than 2 NS hits on the same target that, along this line of thoughts, we should also award as many mikes on a scoring target as the shots fired towards it that missed it, not only two.

"You shot it, you deserve it", isn't it?

But if people want to apply a policy of "you shot it, you deserve it" then we should score all hits on a scoring target.

[Jim Norman]

16 targets x 9 pellets is 151 holes

Hell, I'd rather not be the patcher of that match.

On second thoughts, I'd rather not shoot that match at all, it would take a couple of months to run all the squads through each stage...

BTW, nice set of new rules for SG ...

Luca,

If you shoot a SG match with a Buck stage, you are shooting this. We only record the two highest hits, but we still have to tape all the holes, all we don't do is record the remaining 9.

And sorry to all of you that say it only takes two hits to neutralize a shoot target. That is only when we say that is so. it can take up to 12 hits in a standards. I can setup a COF which requires 4 hits on all targets, or 3 or 5 or any other number up to 12. So at the very least we should count all the hits on a NS up to the number required on adjacent targets. One NS covering two shoots, then count 4 hits, assuing we are counting 2 per shoot.

Also, I again put forth that a miss may be a miss and a hit on a Shoot is counted to 2, generally speaking, all hits on a NS should be counted. Hits on NS targets show a lack of control on the part of the shooter.

Jim

[caps]

Hits on NS targets show a lack of control on the part of the shooter.

But so are misses. This is why I say count EVERY shot or limit all possibilities to 2.

Edited May 17, 2006 by caps

[Flexmoney]

As far as counting just 2, or all of the NS hits, I wouldn't care one way or the other except it has caused us to incorporate that painful rule of scoring and taping between strings of most classifiers. I've been to a lot of matches where this just isn't happening.

We should revert to counting all NS hits if for no other reason than to have greater consistency in how classifiers are scored.

+1

And, not just the classifiers. As I have said before, I have seen NS's geting scored wrong at lots of matches...more than once I have had to remind a Match director of the new rule that scores 2 max.

But, hey...the rule is here. And, I don't think there is any likelyhood that it will get changed any time soon. It has been built up into too much of an issue.

Neil, thanks for giving the shotgunning perspective.

[Jim Norman]

I will risk putting this thought out.

In light of the current USPSA/IPSC situation, why can't USPSA count all the hits on a NS and IPSC count only 2?

Let's have two sets of rules. One for USPSA and one for IPSC. We can have inverted Metric targets, all hits on a NS, no traveling warnings and other changes that we may want to undo. IPSC can have IPSC rules. We'll be running both IPSC and USPSA rules matches here in the US as I understand it. Shooters that want only 2 hits on a NS and want Production to be Limited Light can shoot IPSC, those of us that like what we had can shoot USPSA.

Both sides can win here.

Jim Norman

Jim Norman

[caps]

Shooters that want only 2 hits on a NS and want Production to be Limited Light can shoot IPSC

Why do you say IPSC Production is "Limited Light"? I've shot Production in Canada and the production rules there are way more restrictive than they are here, where you can change all the internals of a gun.

[Jim Norman]

While Canada has a legally required 10 round limit, most of IPSC Production is full capacity and race holster.

US Production does allow some mods, but you have to use a carry type holster and are limited to 10 rounds.

With a 10 round limit many more guns are competative. In USPSA you can shoot 9mm, .40 cal and even .45. In IPSC a 9mm is derigeur.

Jim Norman

[GeorgeInNePa]

While Canada has a legally required 10 round limit, most of IPSC Production is full capacity and race holster.

US Production does allow some mods, but you have to use a carry type holster and are limited to 10 rounds.

With a 10 round limit many more guns are competative. In USPSA you can shoot 9mm, .40 cal and even .45. In IPSC a 9mm is derigeur.

Jim Norman

I don't know Jim, I'd kinda like Production to be a "load'em up" kind of Division. This is the only thing that makes me want to try an IPSC match.

Of course, I'd have to buy a new gun, my G34 isn't an approved IPSC Production gun...

[Neil Beverley]

So! Lets get this straight.

We all understand Jim's position with regards to NS hits for HG.

For SG it clearly gets more confusing. Jim has proposed a convoluted solution whereby all hits for buckshot are counted. This is based on 9 pellets per cartridge.

What about 20 gauge? How much readily available ammo is out there for 20 gauge in 9 ball?

What jiggery pokery will be required to allow 20 gauge guns to compete as well. Or is the new scoring suggestion going to include a proposal to ban 20 gauge from USPSA SG Matches? I think not!

Unless you score a set maximum of hits on both scoring targets and no-shoots the scoring can be unfair. Half a pattern on a target for 12 gauge will always involve a different number of hits to 20 gauge.

So, moving this onwards, it looks like there would be, or certainly should be, a different scoring procedure for SG compared to Jim's preferred procedure for HG.

What about Multigun stages? You currently have one standard scoring principle. If you change you will end up having to apply different principles. You might think that you are prepared to live with it but is it really that necessary. Does it help?

If the single NS in the middle of 2 scoring targets is such a big issue then include a second NS so you can award penalties on both NS targets.

[GeorgeInNePa]

-SNIP-

If the single NS in the middle of 2 scoring targets is such a big issue then include a second NS so you can award penalties on both NS targets.

This is probably the easiest solution, use more no-shoots.

[Jim Norman]

-SNIP-

If the single NS in the middle of 2 scoring targets is such a big issue then include a second NS so you can award penalties on both NS targets.

This is probably the easiest solution, use more no-shoots.

Actually it doesn't solve the problem. Two no shoots with non-scoring borders less than one bullet diameter apart. Two clean hits in this area, each NS now has two hits. one each hit on a NS,not touching a perf and two clean scoring hits. Old scoring method, three NS hits each, new method, 4 NS hits total number of holes in NS targets 6.

[Jim Norman]

So! Lets get this straight.

We all understand Jim's position with regards to NS hits for HG.

For SG it clearly gets more confusing. Jim has proposed a convoluted solution whereby all hits for buckshot are counted. This is based on 9 pellets per cartridge.

What about 20 gauge? How much readily available ammo is out there for 20 gauge in 9 ball?

What jiggery pokery will be required to allow 20 gauge guns to compete as well. Or is the new scoring suggestion going to include a proposal to ban 20 gauge from USPSA SG Matches? I think not!

Unless you score a set maximum of hits on both scoring targets and no-shoots the scoring can be unfair. Half a pattern on a target for 12 gauge will always involve a different number of hits to 20 gauge.

So, moving this onwards, it looks like there would be, or certainly should be, a different scoring procedure for SG compared to Jim's preferred procedure for HG.

What about Multigun stages? You currently have one standard scoring principle. If you change you will end up having to apply different principles. You might think that you are prepared to live with it but is it really that necessary. Does it help?

If the single NS in the middle of 2 scoring targets is such a big issue then include a second NS so you can award penalties on both NS targets.

Neil,

As I said earlier, I can understand the problems associated with multiple projectile rounds (Buckshot) so in the case of SG I can accept an upper limit on NS hits, although maybe it should be 4, 6 or even 9. What if I shoot at a target twice in a comstock COF, we have essentially agreed that we score the best two hits, but if I have 12 holes in a NS I really think we should count more than 2.

We can shoot Pistol, Rifle and Slug using the same rules. Only Buckshot really needs a special case, but I think that the upper limit on NS hits should reflect the greater number of projectiles.

Case in point, pistol, one projectile per trigger pull, two trigger pulls required to score, shotgun 9+ projectiles per trigger pull, only one trigger pull required to score. I think we really should account for more than two of the pellets.

Jim

[chuckw]

Two no shoots with non-scoring borders less than one bullet diameter apart.

So separate them more! You'd have the same problems if they were scoring targets. Don't blame bad stage-building on the 2 NS rule.

[Jim Norman]

A stage with two shoots seperated A-zone to A-zone by the width of a single NS is not bad design. As it currently stand I have to cut a NS in half and apply a reproducable non-scoring border down both cuts. You are now telling me I need to leave enough space between the halved NS's that a .45 can clear without touching both. I say that makes this a BAD RULE.

As it used to be a single NS between two targets was OK, If I hit is 4x it counted for 4 hits, now I have to cut a target, apply a border, and leave a space where an errant round can pass. WHY? THis is just DUMB!

Don't tell me about scoring parody and 2 hits is all it takes to score, as the COF I just described will require 4 hits on each target.

COF, 2 targets seperated by one NS, standing erect with wrists above respective shoulders. on start signal, engage each target with two rounds, perform a mandatory reload and reengage both targets with two rounds each, SHO. Score Virginia Count.

As described, 40 points, 4 A hits on each target, two of each of the A hits on each target are breaking the perf on the NS. Only 2 hits count and the score is 40 points for the 8 A hits minus 20 for the 2 NS hits as only two of the 4 count.

Cut the NS in half and it is now minus 40 as there are effectively 2 NS targets. (Actually I could overlap the two NS targets I suppose and spread them just far enough that the borders are exposed, but I want precisely the width of one target for htis exercise.)

In both situations the holes in the targets are all exactly in the same places showing exactly the same amount of or lack of skill on the part of the shooter. Assume exactly the same times.

Why make us go through this BS exercise? Just count the damned hits.

Jim Norman

[chuckw]

As it currently stand I have to cut a NS in half and apply a reproducable non-scoring border down both cuts.

Why do you have to cut one NS? You can put two NS side by side between the shoots or stick two NS overlapped between the shoots. You're making a mountain out of a molehill by insisting on having one NS between two shoots.

[Neil Beverley]

Jim

You repeatedly focus on a single target presentation to help argue your case as if this is the be all and end all. A no-shoot or no-shoots with a scoring target either side is not the definitive design requirement for practical shooting.

By constantly focusing on this one presentation you are clouding the issue. And I'm sure your'e now going to want to contrive other target presentations just to try to add weight to your arguments. But the truth is there is a solution for the target array that seems to bother you the most.

Wouldn't it be better to look for solutions rather than problems? Is the glass half empty or half full?

[Flexmoney]

OK...this has played out.

The original question was answered long ago, and now we are into something other than rules discussion.

CLOSED