Weak Hand Thumb Dilemma

[cz75ipsc]

Sorry if this post seems confusing or poorly written, it's past 2 am...

I've been thinking about my grip. Currently I have the weak hand thumb touching the frame, and there seems to be some pressure (i.e. not just resting there). I've spent countless hours reading all the posts regarding weak hand thumb positioning, and most everyone is saying that touching the frame is not cool. Now I'm wondering whether I should change my grip in hopes of improvement to my accuracy. I can't shoot a good group to save my life, and I wonder if this is the reason. Well, this and the fact that I've never shot anything purely accuracy-based (bullseye etc).

The problem is that I hate the flying thumb -method. There's just no consistency, and it just might seem that way, but I feel the thumb acts as a pendulum in recoil if not pinned down to something. I know, sounds weird. The option I've actually considered is one where I very deliberately touch the side of my palm with my thumb (like if you'd do a "karate chop"). This seems waaaay better than the flying thumbs, but the thing is that I haven't seen any top dogs use this, and it might be for a reason. I know, I know, don't try to imitate someone, do what feels right and gives good results. Still, from previous experience I know that whenever I've changed a technical aspect to one the top dogs use, I've improved quite a bit (weaver->iso, index finger off trigger guard etc).

I noticed that my transitions from right to left suck when I take the thumb off the frame. There's a lot of wobble in the sights. L->R transitions don't seem that affected, but then again they weren't nearly as good as my R->L's to begin with. And I know, I should practice both ways. I do, but for me R->L's are still tons faster and more consistant, now I realize it's probably because I use the WH thumb as kind of a brake. Oh yes, all the experimenting so far has been dry fire, so I don't have any idea how the sights track with this grip.

I'm rambling, and I lost my point there somewhere. I guess this is more of a post for myself than to you guys . I'll write some more after I get some sleep.

[BritinUSA]

From reading your post it sounds like the only problem that you are having is that someone said that touching the frame with the thumbs is a bad move. It aint. It depends on the gun. If you touch the frame on a 1911, there's a chance that you will rub the slide and cause a malfunction. This is a non-issue on the CZ as the slide sits inside the frame.

If your grip works for you as it is - and you are happy with your results - then don't change it.

Just because you can change something, doesn't mean that you should. Or perhaps I misread your post....

[kevin c]

Brit makes a very good point.

But if you want to change your grip to see if there is any improvement, try to point the whole length of the weak hand thumb at the target you are about to shoot, basically parallel to the slide w/o touching it.

This will hopefully get your thumb in a consistent position, even if it isn't touching anything, and, if you really try to get the whole thumb pointing in the same direction, it will tend to maximize the foward camming of the weak hand that many say offers the best mechanical advantage for recoil recovery.

[Crusher]

I've spent countless hours reading all the posts regarding weak hand thumb positioning, and most everyone is saying that touching the frame is not cool.

Where did you hear about that? If this were the case "touching the frame is not cool" there would be no need for "gas pedels" on open guns, and they would not be outlawed on anything other than open guns.

I (and a few others) use our support hand thumb (and a good portion of the rest of the support hand) to do some of the work of the grip. Yes rubbing the slide is bad so don't let your thumb rub the slide.

As others have said for the gun to snap back into alignment upon recoil caming the wrist is important and using your support hand thumb to index wrist alignment is crucial.

[Skywalker]

cz,

I too shoot with my left thumb touching the frame of my SVI (Standard), but I never thought of the "coolness factor" or blaming poor accuracy on it.

If you happen to notice you're applying side pressure with your weak hand thumb, yes, you definitely have a grip problem ("gas pedals" are different, you're supposed to use them to apply downward force, and the resulting side force/momentum is minimal).

But, if you just touch the frame, there's no side force applied, thus you're good to go.

If you're aware of applying side force to the frame, then maybe you can try the following: place your weak hand thumb in such a way that the thumb nail is pointing upwards, instead of left. In this position is more difficult to use your thumb to push the frame from the side and, if you prove successfull, it won't require a major change to your grip.

[Flexmoney]

I suspect you might have more to look at with regards to your grip than just the thumbs.

[Bigbadaboom]

Touching the frame with the thumb is not a bad thing. Applying pressure to the frame with the thumb is.

If you are only laying your thumb along the side of the frame pointing the thumb towards the target then that's the propper way to do it. What you need to watch for is if you are applying pressure to the frame with your thumb and, in turn, pressing the gun to the right (If you are right handed).

Edit: Should have read Skywalkers post first. What he said.

Edited April 27, 2006 by Bigbadaboom

[AustinMike]

Touching the frame with the thumb is not a bad thing. Applying pressure to the frame with the thumb is.

+1. I used to have my weak thumb just hanging out there and someone suggested putting it against the frame. I have to say that really helped stabilize my overall grip and got my weak palm tighter to the grip panel. The thumb points right at the target. Just don't try and "steer" the gun with it. I used to have a hard time shooting Glocks until I started doing this and now they feel natural. The 1911 is the only thing that can cause trouble, if the thumb rubs the slide. I had a burr on the slide stop notch that sliced my thumb open when I got too high up. Filed that down, but I sometimes use tape or a band-aid now as a layer of potection.

[cz75ipsc]

A quick reply before I'm off to work.

I should've stated that I shoot an STI Edge, despite my nick (switched guns a few years back). In the CZ IPSC Standard -gun it's almost impossible not to touch the frame, because the frame is very wide. Anyways, as almost everyone pointed out, it's okay to touch the frame, but pressure is bad.

If you're aware of applying side force to the frame, then maybe you can try the following: place your weak hand thumb in such a way that the thumb nail is pointing upwards, instead of left. In this position is more difficult to use your thumb to push the frame from the side and, if you prove successfull, it won't require a major change to your grip.

My thumbnail used to point to about 10 o' clock (almost to the left). I tried Luca's tip and felt an instant improvement, even though the thumbnail now points to about 11 o' clock (or 11:30 ) I'll see how this works in live fire, but it feels better. Thx!

As to what Kyle said, yes, there may be some other issues with my grip, but I do use the widely accepted high-grip, thumb on safety, both thumbs point at target, cammed support hand, trigger finger not touching anything but trigger, short(ish) trigger for a small-handed guy. The thing is, I think the support hand issues I've been having relate to my small hands.

I shoot IPSC Standard, so a thumb rest is something I've considered, for no other reason than to have a place to put my thumb. I dunno, however, if thumb rests are a good thing for small-handed ppl. I'll probably order one anyway...

Thanks everyone! I've already gotten tons of good info. This is why I love these forums!

[bountyhunter]

Sorry if this post seems confusing or poorly written, it's past 2 am...

I've been thinking about my grip. Currently I have the weak hand thumb touching the frame, and there seems to be some pressure (i.e. not just resting there). I've spent countless hours reading all the posts regarding weak hand thumb positioning, and most everyone is saying that touching the frame is not cool. Now I'm wondering whether I should change my grip in hopes of improvement to my accuracy.

The problem is that I hate the flying thumb -method.

I point my thunbs forward but about 10 degrees off axis to make sure they stay off the frame. The first time I tried it, the grip felt wierd and "wobbly" but very quickly I was shooting better groups because it forces me to grip with the fingers as we need to do.

If the thumbs apply pressure on the left side of the frame, the right hand has to apply a counter force typically with the base knuckle of the trigger finger. As you pull the trigger, that pressure varies and the gun shifts position. That's why you should keep the thumbs off the frame.

From reading your post it sounds like the only problem that you are having is that someone said that touching the frame with the thumbs is a bad move. It aint.

Actually, Brian Enos is one of many who have said the thumbs need to be off the frame.

If your grip works for you as it is - and you are happy with your results - then don't change it.

The original posetr said:

I can't shoot a good group to save my life

He isn't happy with it.