Production Rules Proposal

[GeorgeInNePa]

How about letting them start Cocked & Locked if the gun

is capable. Trying to let the hammer down on a live round

can be a DQ in the making.....

Gene

Sorry Gene, that's Limited or Lim10.

[Shadow]

Deleted

Edited April 18, 2006 by Shadow

[Flyin40]

Glad I went to the Darkside.............back to dryfiring. Wasted to much time reading this already..............

Seriously though, I don't shoot production but my opinion its stock period. No modifications at all. Save that for the other divisions. You want sights go to limited, you want a magwell go to limited. Trigger go to limited.........the whole idea for Production should be production. Add in enough units sold to make sure the companies don't make custom production guns.

If your going to talk about Production at least call the division by its real name "Custom Production" Take your custom gun and customize it, thats all that is really being said.

Don't mind me, I'm just a stupid open class shooter who don't have to think about much cause I carry a big stick and just shoot.

Joking aside you guys really have some hard work ahead of you. You don't want to alienate those who have already had work done to the gun but you also don't want to allow all this special work done to the gun. Tough road ahead. Good luck..........

Flyin40

[bufit323]

my opinion its stock period. No modifications at all.

what about this though:

what do you tell the guy that has shot his SIG 5,000 round and gotten that DA pull nice and smooth (no trigger [work at all, just polishing parts by repeated fire]).

His hammer breaks (don't laugh, mine is broken right now). Now under the no trigger job rule, would this guy have to throw a basic, stock, new part into his gun?

Would he be allowed to fit it to his worn-in seer?

Would he be allowed to "polish" it to match the rest of his broken in pieces?

What if this stock replacement part does not function reliably?

Sorry, buy a new gun, because we are not allowing trigger work on production guns?

My problem is that the "no trigger job" folks aren't considering these possibilities.

Edited April 18, 2006 by bufit323

[Flyin40]

Stock is stock is stock..........replace all parts that break with stock parts. With all parts its not going to be a drop in part. Its going to have to be fitted and there is lies the problem, with fitting you will have those individuals will push it and lighten up the trigger pull. Simple solution would be add a trigger pull gauge at the chrono stage. The trigger pull gauge has its own set of problems with enforcing it. If theres is a no trigger job rule then it has to be enforced. I will eventually buy a production gun. I will not do any trigger work to it even if its allowed. This most likely would be a gun that would be used for home defense or carry. So for my own personal reasons I would shoot this division for the sole purpose of shooting a stock, out of the box gun. Other people have other reasons for shooting it and want to be able to do different things to the gun. Nothing wrong with that, to me its goes against the entire division.

Its hard to say how to fix it, right now to me theres no difference between limited 10 and production. Theres a few things like a magwell and scoring but basically a production gun with some work done to it is as about as good or as good as any limited 10 gun that money can buy.

Who knows what to do but right now but this division is a custom production division.

As far as the guys who have already spent the money to modify the gun. Thats a hard one. It comes down to this either you want production or you don't. Do you want a division with a out of the box gun or do you want to be able to modify it??? I guess if the membership speaks up in volume things might change, if not they will stay the same.

Who knows what the right answer is.

Flyin40

Edited April 18, 2006 by Flyin40

[Bear23]

I think this is where IDPA SSP class has it right.

Just throw the XD in along with it. Simple rules, gun fits into a box. No bad juju.

Most guys just throw in a lighter recoil spring in their glocks and run the minor power ammo. No need to lighten a slide.

[Bigbadaboom]

I think this is where IDPA SSP class has it right.

Just throw the XD in along with it. Simple rules, gun fits into a box. No bad juju.

Most guys just throw in a lighter recoil spring in their glocks and run the minor power ammo. No need to lighten a slide.

Doesn't work with the XD .40

[Jim Norman]

Perhaps my concern about the money our members have already spent on legal modifications is unwarranted. It seems I am operating in the minority. Strange that part of this conversation was about members having to spend money on modifications and that was considered bad, but once they have spent the money it is considered OK to simply trash that investment for, at least to me, no obvious good reason.

I wonder if those who are so eager to devalue members investments will still feel the same when the push comes to elminiate L-10.

Gary

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, but the whole 'shooters will lose their investments' thing bugs me. Competition guns aren't investments, despite what the guy at the gun show with the ten year old Briley Open gun and $3200 price tag thinks

To preserve, say 100 shooters' "investments", requiring (as-in "you need this to be competitive", regardless of the truth to it) everybody else to continue to pay is short-sighted.

5000 rounds of ammo costs more than any trigger job or sights or 9x19 Open barrels, let alone match fees, gas, lodging, etc, etc, etc... Make changes take effect in 2 years and anybody complaining about the cost is merely bitching for the sake of it.

IPSC pistols aren't investments, they're expenses.

You mean I can't get $3500 for my old Para Open gun with an Aimpoint tube sight?

Damn!

Jim

[Bear23]

I think this is where IDPA SSP class has it right.

Just throw the XD in along with it. Simple rules, gun fits into a box. No bad juju.

Most guys just throw in a lighter recoil spring in their glocks and run the minor power ammo. No need to lighten a slide.

Doesn't work with the XD .40

I run a 14lb ISMI in mine and it runs just fine. Tactical that is. Service model...You can order a stainless guide rod and apring kit... dons guide rod. www.pistolgear.com

[Bigbadaboom]

I think this is where IDPA SSP class has it right.

Just throw the XD in along with it. Simple rules, gun fits into a box. No bad juju.

Most guys just throw in a lighter recoil spring in their glocks and run the minor power ammo. No need to lighten a slide.

Doesn't work with the XD .40

I run a 14lb ISMI in mine and it runs just fine. Tactical that is. Service model...You can order a stainless guide rod and apring kit... dons guide rod. www.pistolgear.com

See reply here.

[SA Friday]

The "special made" guns are what causes people to push the idea of an equipment race.

This is a double-edged sword. On one hand, we've rejected manufacturers' stock products because we believe that there is a better way to configure those products to put points on target faster. Then....when the manufacturer follows our lead and delivers a product that follows the principle of putting more points on target faster....we throw a hissy and tell them they're selling "cheater" guns.

So basically, a manufacturer now needs to sell a crappy gun to make us happy?

=========================================================

I really hate this debate, and not for the obvious reason that I personally benefit from one of the allowed modifications. This whole debate is driven by some pretty unrealistic ideals and expectations by just about all of the "complaintants" involved. Unless someone's out there selling a pistol that drills alphas automatically, most of this stuff is pure perception.

I wish people in the sport would spend as much time slaying the myth of "The Magic Gun" as they did mucking with Production rules. We'd all be a lot better off for it.

YAAAAAAAAA! I've read three strings about production today, rule mods in every one of them. This trigger shouldn't be allowed, that mod shouldnt be legal. Someone finally said what I though for the last hour. Pick your shooter and shoot it to the best of your ability. Follow the rules in place. Nothing is broken and it's fair. Ask for clairification when needed (Vanek trigger) but otherwise its pretty moot.

[glock_40_caliber]

Thank you, SA. Why is there a need to always fix something that isn't broken?

[sigp226]

I have to agree with Nik. The rules are written and done. People have spend money and time on gear now is not the time to pull the rug out from under them. If you gun falls under the rules as written then it should be fine and not changed. If your mods are not legal under the rules then shame on you. My trigger pull in DA is 8.5lbs., Novak fixed sights,and some skateboard tape and this is what I have chosen to use. I don't care if anothers is 2.5 for the first shot as long as it is safe.

"Someone once told me dance in the shoes that you chose to go to the dance in" If you don't like the rules shoot IDPA they like to change the rules weekly!

[mike4045]

I would like to see Production put in line with the IPSC rules. I have run into alot of production guns with more mods than a race gun. If you can't shoot it without a 2# trigger go to limited. I don't shoot much prod anymore, because it was race guns made to look stock. Out of the box stock is Production.

I think IPSC allows race holsters. I think about the only thing right with production now is no race holsters. Let them have full cap mags, score it minor and just shoot.

[GeorgeInNePa]

I would like to see Production put in line with the IPSC rules. I have run into alot of production guns with more mods than a race gun. If you can't shoot it without a 2# trigger go to limited. I don't shoot much prod anymore, because it was race guns made to look stock. Out of the box stock is Production.

I think IPSC allows race holsters. I think about the only thing right with production now is no race holsters. Let them have full cap mags, score it minor and just shoot.

That's fine until CZ sells 2000 of their Production Division "racer". Then that will be legal and someone will cry over that.

"Waaaa, his gun is too trick, waaaa! I can't compete!, Waaaaa!!!"

[Nemo]

BTT, because of this discussion.

[ysued]

BTT, because of this discussion.

Thanks for pinting me to this thread my Underwater Friend!!

I must agree with some and disagree with others!!

Before I post my Wish List of Midifications, I would like to make some statements...

1)Even though I don't like the idea of Melting Bomars, This is too late for change!! I see Rich D.s Point, that this will hurt his income, but Rich, you are one of the best Production Smiths out there and you are very reasonably priced too, I don't think that the lost of some Bomar Cuts will affect you much. Yes, it will hurt you, but Sometimes we can take a hit for the good of the sport, right?? The folks that spent the money on Bomar Modifications... That is actually tougher to take!! But that is done, and IMHO, it will never be reversed!! But I really think, it should have never been allowed!! This is an Un-Intended Consequence of the Sight Repalcement Ruling.

And for those who say that they don't want to loose their Investments in Bomar'd Slides and don't want to buy new guns.... What would you do if you wanted to shoot an IPSC Match?? Borrow a gun?? Or buy a new Slide??

My wish List:

Trigger Pull Limit (3.5lb for Striker Firearms, 4.5 to 5Lb for first DA)OK

Sights (Post & Notch) in factory Dovetail Cuts(Too late now)OK

Aftermarket Guide Rods OK(if they meet the 2oz rule)

No Race Holsters

No Lightenig Cuts( I read the post on the 40XD, this is a tough choice)

Refinishing OK

Grip Tape OK

NO Mag Wells( I don't care if HK sells a gun with one, take it off, tanfoglio, I don't know)

2000 Piece Production Minimum, I believe Production guns should be readily available to everyone.

Define External Modifications(Frame & Slide) then, say not to them!!

Score Minor OK

Barrel Replacement with Factory Contour OK

Extended Mag Release (Factory Profile) OK

Trigger Replacement (Factory Profile) OK

Hammer Replacement (Factory Profile) OK

10 Round Limit ( I like doing reloads, and those with 15 round mags will whine at those with 18 round mags)

Throat Barrel OK

Slide Replacement (Factory Profile) OK

What am I missing??

Hey, I have been presuaded on some of the above, I can be persuaded futher, but some of the above make too much sense!!

Y

Edited August 1, 2006 by ysued

[glock_40_caliber]

It seems like most everyone here is crying about something with production division, as it stands right now. I wonder (1) how many that are crying for changes to this division actually shoot it, and (2) how many of these people actually would begin to shoot in this division if some of these changes were made?

I know one of the biggest bit of whining I've seen on here for this division has been the 10 round limit in the magazines. Big deal. It's not like those of us who actually do shoot the division are competing against those with legal big sticks, we are competing against each other. In my opinion, this keeps it level across the country, because, we do still have some back akwards states that are so afraid of the 11th round in a mag, that those subjects, I mean, citizens, and members, would be unable to fairly compete. I know I haven't been around this sport very long, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that one of the reasons L10 came around, the 10 round limit on magazines?

Again, it's not broke, so do not fix it. If you don't like it, shoot another division, and leave those of us who do enjoy it the way it is the heck alone.

[ysued]

It seems like most everyone here is crying about something with production division, as it stands right now. I wonder (1) how many that are crying for changes to this division actually shoot it, and (2) how many of these people actually would begin to shoot in this division if some of these changes were made?

I shoot it, this is my second year!! And I will keep shooting it, whether or not the changes we have sugested here happen or not!!

I know one of the biggest bit of whining I've seen on here for this division has been the 10 round limit in the magazines. Big deal. It's not like those of us who actually do shoot the division are competing against those with legal big sticks, we are competing against each other. In my opinion, this keeps it level across the country, because, we do still have some back akwards states that are so afraid of the 11th round in a mag, that those subjects, I mean, citizens, and members, would be unable to fairly compete. I know I haven't been around this sport very long, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that one of the reasons L10 came around, the 10 round limit on magazines?

I'm not bothered at all with the 10 round limit!! As long as everyone has it, it works for me!!

Again, it's not broke, so do not fix it. If you don't like it, shoot another division, and leave those of us who do enjoy it the way it is the heck alone.

It's OK right now, what I'm afraid of is the Division Degenerating(or evolving like some call it) into a Limited, Minor DA Division!! Simple, another Equipment Race!!

Edited August 1, 2006 by ysued

[BR]

As a production shooter, I will jump on the "ain't broke, don't break it" bandwagon. The result that I foresee with the proposed rule changes is that we will all be shooting essentially the same gun. But, that's not what production is about, is it? While I chose glock, I see many other shooters turning to XDs and Sigs and CZs and etc... then ever before. I don't know why. There are just more good production choices then ever before.

Over the last year I have seen a dramatic increase in the number -- and quality -- of production shooters at local and state matches. I wager that production is the fastest growing division in USPSA. Why break a good thinkg? The current rules promote freedom of the marketplace, which I like.

The only valid reason to change would be if the USPSA production rules were made exactly the same as IPSC's. However, the proposed rules don't do that. Plus, its just damn un-American.

Cheers.

-brian reynolds

[ysued]

As a production shooter, I will jump on the "ain't broke, don't break it" bandwagon. The result that I foresee with the proposed rule changes is that we will all be shooting essentially the same gun. But, that's not what production is about, is it? While I chose glock, I see many other shooters turning to XDs and Sigs and CZs and etc... then ever before. I don't know why. There are just more good production choices then ever before.

Yes there are a bunch of great Production gusn out there!! Right now I'm shooting Glock too.

The division, as it stands right now is OK, but like i've said before, I'm afaraid that it will keep going to the extreme of the Race Gun!! I've seen it happen, it can happen again!!

Over the last year I have seen a dramatic increase in the number -- and quality -- of production shooters at local and state matches. I wager that production is the fastest growing division in USPSA. Why break a good thinkg? The current rules promote freedom of the marketplace, which I like.

I don't want to break the Division, but to maintain a good thing!! I believe it should evolve, but not to an extreme!! Today Bomars, what next?? Lasers, Flashlights, Ghost Ring Sights?? Oh wait, I've seen that beofore!!

The only valid reason to change would be if the USPSA production rules were made exactly the same as IPSC's. However, the proposed rules don't do that. Plus, its just damn un-American.

IMHO, the IPSC Rules are not perfect!!

1) They allow Race Holsters

2) They do not allow the G34 & 35 because of barrel Length

3) They do not allow the XD, for whatever reason

4) They have that Goofy 5Lb Trigger Pull Minimum

5) They don't have a Round capacity Limit, not all 9mm's have the same round capacity, some will whine!!

IMHO, the USPSA rules are great, but in some instances, they have gone out of control, and they need clarification, at least!!

[JD McDorce]

3) They do not allow the XD, for whatever reason

When did this happen? It's still on the IPSC Production Division List (under SPRINGFIELD XD (except ported models)).

[ysued]

3) They do not allow the XD, for whatever reason

When did this happen? It's still on the IPSC Production Division List (under SPRINGFIELD XD (except ported models)).

I was told that it was deemed a single action pistol!!

And not legal anymore!!

International guys??? Please chime in!!

[sigp226]

All I have to say is Glock 40 you pretty much said it all. Leave production the HELL ALONE! Now is not the time for changes.

[GeorgeInNePa]

All I have to say is Glock 40 you pretty much said it all. Leave production the HELL ALONE! Now is not the time for changes.

Except some of us don't think you should be able to shoot heavy all stainless guns, maybe you shouldn't be able to shoot guns that are made up of parts from guns that are not easily available (how long have you been waiting for that 5" 5906, 3 or 4 months?), and whats with being able to weld up and change parts to shorten up the take up on your trigger, that's changing the factory setting.

Either it is box stock (and then you have to put up with the factory race guns).

OR

It is a clearly defined set of rules.

Pick one.