Horus Question

[ap3]

I was just about set to buy a Horus 4-16x Falcon with the H25 reticle until a friend of mine got me to thinking that I would end up wanting more magnification. I am brand new to MOR with my first rifle in the process of being put together and I have yet to shoot a match.

Is 16x magnification enough, or should I be in the 24x range? I am committed to the H25 reticle system . I planned on shooting any type tactical match.

Any comments would sure be appreciate before I give up that much cash to an optic.

[EricW]

16X is plenty of mag. My next scope will be a 6.5 to 20 loopy. 10X is not enough when you're spotting for yourself.

Before you buy a Horus, you would do well to surf Sniper's Hide forums and WestCoastTactical.com's (my preference) forums and read the reviews on the Horus before you buy. Personally, I think you would be well-advised to choose another optic and have your reticle preference installed afterward. My impression of Horus is that software is what they do and that optics and accessories run a distant, distant twenty-second in priority.

I'm suck big wind at MOR, but I know a couple guys who are damned good and I've never heard Horus' name so much as mentioned aside from their software. The big guns in MOR scopes are: Leupold, Nightforce, Schmidt & Bender, and US Optics. I know a lot of people bag on Leupold, but all I know is that the tactical scope I just bought is PERFECT. The turrets and mildots are in perfect calibration and the knobs track very reliably. And it was 1/4 the cost of a USO or S&B.

The two hot rocks that I shoot with both have 50mm Loopy's on top of their rifle, btw. I would look hard at the TMR reticle with the first focal plane option. I'm heading out with them tomorrow AM, so I'll ask about the Horus.

FWIW...

Edited March 11, 2006 by EricW

[ap3]

I had just finished reading about Horus scopes on sinpershide when I flipped back and saw your post. I think you have a good point if I can get the H25 reticle in a different scope and use their software i believe that would be a VALUE purchase. An H25 in a Leopold on US optics that might be a good pick.

Thanks Eric

[EricW]

ap3,

Whatever you do, don't go gaga over high-zoot sighting systems. There's much more to being a good rifle shooter than the optical system. The #1 issue, I believe, is learning how to create a rock-solid cheekweld so that your eye is always in the same relation to the scope. A lot of "tracking issues" get blamed on poor cheekwelds, IMO.

COF's that preclude bipod use really separate the men from the boys (and girls). The guys that really know their crap are using highpower handstops mounted on rails with Tactical Intervention (clip in) sling systems. For them, the bipod is just something to keep their gun from falling over when they're not shooting.

Personally, I question the true utility of handheld computers for field use, but 99.998% of the guys shooting MOR disagree with me and a lot (all?) of the hot rocks are using them. One of the guys I shoot with is a police sniper instructor and he told me that the Horus software is systematically off. I think he said it always placed him high IIRC. He shoots the old fashioned way with trajectory cards and wind rosettes. According to him, the software is a decent *starting* point, but that you almost always have to come up with your own trajectory data.

I think I'm going to let him be my role model for MOR and leave the video games to others.

YMMV.

[Bret Heidkamp]

Guys,

I've been shooting the H25 reticle now for about 1 year. I bought it in their 4-16 super falcon to play with the reticle and see if I liked it before buying it in a higher $$ scope. I have to say it works really well for large targets (1 1/2 MOA or so). For smaller targets, you should be clicking, which it also does in 1/10 mil clicks (nice). Reason being, I have a harder time making really tiny hold adjustments between the 1/2 mil ticks. However, on 99% of the steel targets out there, this system rocks. You just need to know your clicks for really tight shots.

That being said, I live in Montana where I shoot 99% of my shots 400 yards or more to all the way out past 1000. To say we can open up the ranges around here is an understatement. So, I know a bit about shooting far and in the wind. The 16x is definitely strong enough. Come shoot our long range match in April and you can find out.

I do not do (and hopefully will never have to do) the 1/4" dot drills at 50 or 100 yards. Double YUK. I think that kind of competition is incredibly boring.

I also don't use the PDA software, and wouldn't really want to start relying on a PDA. My range cards work great, and they are fast. Eric's comment on the range cards is right on. You absolutely MUST prove your zeros.

I would recommend buying the Horus as a cheap way to play with this reticle vs. ordering it in a USO or S&B. Then if you like it, spend the big bucks. If you don't then you're not out a bunch of cash.

I definitely give the reticle a big thumbs up once you get used to it. However, know your dope in clicks too!

BTW, regarding the high-$$ glass: if you don't want to spend the money then don't look through it or you will be screwed. S&B or Zeiss will open a new world to your eyes. My other two highly relied upon gear - binos and spotting scope - are Leica and I should have made that switch many years ago. Regrettably I only did that a couple years back. Leupold scopes are a good value, and I own several, but they don't come close to the optics of S&B or Zeiss.

Only one thing I disagree with - YMMV - buying an accurate rifle and putting a bargain scope on it = reduced return on your investment. Put the best glass you can afford on it. Leupold is fine but no H25 reticle available as far as I know. Plus, the internals I understand use plastic bushings to take up slop (standard manufacturing practice, nothing wrong there) but S&B uses hand lapped metal shims that are serial numbered to the scope body. i.e., bomber construction. This info comes from a company that does scope repair for a living, not me - I've not taken any of them apart as I'd never get them back together...

Hope some of this helps your decision making process.

[Bronco]

You might want to talk to Tate Moots, he won the MOR at the USPSA nat'l. and at RM3G using a Horus Vision scope. Check Front sight mag for the story.

As far as the power, I use a 2.5 X 10 and find it to be plenty out to 1000. I've found that with higher power scopes the higher powers were not used because of mirage. Bret makes several good points about the limits of the reticle which are valid from my experience. I've shot a Talon for over a year now which is a 1 X 4 and find it easy to hit IPSC sized targets out to 800 yd. using an AR in .223. The software is as close as any I've used and came free with the scope, it also works with any mil dot system. Range cards are a VERY valuable asset when in the field so start one if you haven't.

[ap3]

I would love to have an S&B or Zeiss, but funds are limited, so I'll take your advice and avoid looking through them. I appreciate the thoughts on the PDA system and the fact I need to know my own zero's. This is great info for newbie like me, thanks.

Edited March 12, 2006 by ap3

[Bret Heidkamp]

Bronco,

That's totally my feelings as well. The higher powers can be used pretty well in the early AM but mirage will kill you later in the day and you end up dialing them down.

I have a close friend that nails coyotes at 700+ yards with a straight 10x S&B on a 308. Keep in mind a coyote is a mere 4" scoring zone! Now he just swapped to a 5.5 - 25 S&B so it will be interesting to hear his comments in a few months. That is a whopper of a scope with a price tag to match.

ap3 -

Regarding the range cards...start it and keep them up. Your dope will change slightly with temp, humidity, light, etc. so keep notes! Just like learning IPSC... keep a log.

Have a look through those big $$ scopes... it will blow your mind how clear they are, at least it certainly impressed me.

Come up and shoot our long range match - it's only a fun event, prizes by draw, but 1 1/2 miles of hiking with all steel targets to zap out to 1200 yds. If you can travel all the way over here, it would be worth it. I'll post a formal announcement soon. April 29th is the tentative date.

[EricW]

Bronco and Brett,

When last did you try to buy something from Horus Vision? I tried to last fall and came away with the distinct impression that Horus was going down and sinking fast.

I left multiple messages which were never returned. When I managed to connect with a person, I couldn't get answers. I finally just gave up.

[bgary]

I have a Horus 4-16 with the H25 reticle on my bolt gun, and it is a pretty good scope. Optics (as others have noted) are not as crisp as a S&B or USO, but... it costs about half of one of those, ymmv.

Being a gadget guy, I've spent a fair amount of time with both the Horus PDA software (Atrag), and with another package (ExBal). Of the two, I much prefer the ExBal, for a variety of reasons, but at the end of the day, it still comes down to range cards and knowing your zero.

Bruce

[Bret Heidkamp]

Hi Eric!

I last saw them at the Shot show - they had the same booth there as last year, so they should still be in business I would hope. Last time I spoke with them was about 8 months ago. I've noticed their website is really dated. It's the same information and event dates as it was in 2004.

Sorry I don't have a better answer! I know the supplier Hakko (horus branded scope manufacturers) went out of business, and reincarnated as Japan Optics Limited but I have no idea how this impacted Horus. I also know USO was still offering the H25 and H37(?) reticles as of this Shot show with no comments on supply issues.

[EricW]

Thanks Brett,

I'm running on the ragged edge of forum rules here, but I just got a weird vibe from the whole deal last fall. If I had 2.5K jingling around my pocket, I'd probably dump it on a S&B or USO with a Horus reticle without much teeth knashing. I'd be REALLY leery of buying glass from Horus based on the difficulties I had. Scopes are such touchy deals that you're going to get one that needs fixing sooner or later, no matter who's name is on the side. (cheap plastic bushings don't fail me now...)

Our club is going to have a "Sniper" match in Coeur d'Alene here in May. Y'all are invited. (I'll be the guy trying to figure out the difference between a 308 round and a hole in the ground.)

E

[gary meyer]

I bought a horus scope over a year ago. couldnt get it to zero at 100 yds so I sent it back to them they said they would fix it. they've had it 9 months now and no word from them.

wont answer my emails. dont buy their junk.

[Mig]

no word from them. wont answer my emails. dont buy their junk.

+ 1

[Headshot45]

I guess I will add my .02 here....

I was their rep in Florida a couple of years ago....I had 2 personal scopes, 1 for my DPMS 24 Special, and 1 for my savage tactical .308. I had problems with both, sent them back for repairs, and never saw them again....yet to this day.......I guess my opinion would be to avoid them like the plague!!

Frank

[smokshwn]

AP3

I will chime in here as well. The Horus reticle is one of the best systems going period... This isn't my opinion but guys like Jacob Bynum and L. London believe so (both of Rifles Only fame). However the scopes Horus markets leave a lot to be desired. Personally I have an H25 reticle in a USO. As a newbie to long range shooting I will attest that the reticle shortened my learning curve significantly and regardless of who you are greatly simplifies holds for first round hits.

Anyway all in all the reticle and software are the shiznit however I think it is Caveat Emptor as far as Horus' glass goes.

Good luck, Craig