Guess My Gun's Illegal ?

[Carlos]

Jimmy - back to your question: reality is that .40 Minor can actaully produce LESS perceived recoil than 9mm; the .40 you know & like shooting is potentially the best XD for production division. Simply buy some .40 minor from Precision Delta or possibly Atlanta arms and your problems are solved. Or reload.

[Patrick Sweeney]

There you go, injecting a little common sense into a detailed, enthusiastic discussion. And yes, we must make the distinction between IPSC and USPSA when discussing Production. Given the American penchant for fussing, modifying, upgrading and just general experimentation, a Production Division along IPSC lines wouldn't fly. Fer chrissakes, you can't even put racing stripes on your PD pistol in IPSC!

The problem with rules, any rules is one I have pointed out before, and named after myself: Sweeney's Axis of Law. To whit: Clarity and fairness are antagonistic. A law (or rule) can be clear, or it can be fair. It cannot be both.

IPSC is clear: if it ain't the way the maker made it, you can't use it. The fair rule, unfortunately, takes seven pages to lay out.

[Chuck Anderson]

I really wouldn't consider IPSC fair either. It is a manufacturers division. In USPSA I can take a gun from any manufacturer and install a nice barrel, fiber optic sights, do a trigger job, etc. In effect take just about any gun and make it competetive. In IPSC you're going to see one of a few guns start to take a lead, because the factories are willing to make guns specifically for PD. For example the Tanfoglio Custom Stock or whatever it's called. It's a limited gun in 9mm with a DA first shot. Everything else is the same. Yet I can't install a fiber optic sight on my Glock because Glock doesn't put one on. This seems ridiculous to me.

And Pat, in regards to your comment about the additions to the XD, (Bar-Sto bbl, Bo-Mar sight, and trigger job). Every one of those things can be done by the Springfield Custom shop. And come out as a factory gun.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Then all I have to do is convince Springfield to make me an XD sans rollmarkings as to caliber, and I'm in? How does that differ from a prototype?

The whole thing is starting to give me a headache, and it was my idea in the first place.

After back-and-forth emails with John Amidon, the interpretation is: swapping complete uppers from 40 to 9 is OK. Simply plugging a 9mm barrel into a 40 slide is not. I can see the logic, even if it makes me crazy. However, the chances of Springfield selling me (or anyone) a 9mm slide to make a setup, or offering such a setup, are remote in the extreme.

[Flexmoney]

This is only slightly harder than it seems.

When we read the actual rules (I know...crazy huh? ), instead of going off the internet good-ol-boy version, we see that for USPSA Production, US Appendix D9, Section 21 - 21.6 covers what mods are and are not allowed.

21. Allowed modifications are very limited and include the following:

- 21.1 No weighted attachments allowed to magazine.

- 21.2 Front sights may be trimmed, fiber optics inserted, adjusted and/or

have sight black applied. Sights must be of the notch and post type.

- 21.3 Replacement barrels allowed provided barrel length is same as

original factory standard. Heavy barrels and/or barrel sleeves not

allowed.

- 21.4 Action work to enhance reliability (throating, trigger work, etc.) is

allowed.

- 21.5 External modifications other than sights not allowed.

- 21.6 Aftermarket grips which match the profile of the OFM standard for

the approved handgun and/or the application of grip tape or rubber

sleeves is permitted. Modifications to grips, other than previously

mentioned, not allowed, such as grooves cut to reach mag release

or size reduction.

In addition to this, there are 3 Official USPSA rulings on the website that relate to Production. They cover:

- milling the slide for sight installation

- refinishing the gun (hard chrome, whatever)

- swapping external parts from one approved model gun to another, from the same maker.

[Flexmoney]

-----------------------------

As far as what is allowed by the "custom shop"...

Ipsc Production has a rule (D4, 19) that gives the Factory shop some wiggle room. USPSA does NOT have this rule.

-----------------------------

And, last (but not least)...

Even though we have a mere "approved gun list", I was assured by my Area Director and by the head of NROI (Gary and John) that to get on the list, guns would have to meet the old criteria from the Red book (2,000 produced, etc.)

I don't know if that is the reality or not. But, that is the promised criteria.

With that in mind, Springfield (or Glock or S&W, etc.) can't make a small run of "Production Specials".

[shred]

Even though we have a mere "approved gun list", I was assured by my Area Director and by the head of NROI (Gary and John) that to get on the list, guns would have to meet the old criteria from the Red book (2,000 produced, etc.)

This is not the case for IPSC. They explicitly do not have a minmum production number, so I hope our guys are reviewing the list they get from IPSC if they expect such a limit.

[Flexmoney]

It used to be that the list that USPSA had was auto-updated by Ipsc. Anytime the Ipsc list updated...so did the USPSA list.

I pointed this out and was told that USPSA was going to "dis-connect" from the Ipsc auto-update. And, I was told that USPSA was going to review guns on our list (to see if they meet the criteria established and promised).

I don't know where any of that is at.

[Jman]

I ordered 250 rnds of Precision Delta's 40 minor. The 9mm conversion barrel, mags and Wally World WWB will be used for live fire practice. The input has been amazing. Thanks!

[kevin c]

OK, I got a response from John Amidon. Basically, if the slide is marked as to caliber, you can't just go swapping barrels. However, you could swap uppers, regardless of what the serial number code says, as Springfield makes XDs in 9 and 40 in all the sizes.

I'm still discussing with him how a rollmark could make a difference, but I'm not optomistic.

I'd speculated about this in another thread regarding Glock uppers. Thanks, Patrick, it sounds as though, at least in the US, I can make my 35 into a 17 or a 34 with a new top end.

Outside the US? I'm still not sure, but as a B class prole, I doubt I'll be tearing it up at the next WS.

[Patrick Sweeney]

To put a final nail in this, John agrees that taking a 9 and plugging a 40 barrel into it owul make for a kosher Produciton gun (the 9 barrel) and a Limited gun (the 40 barrel.)

However, mechanically, that won't work, as the .40 needs a bigger breechface than the 9, Fitting barrels is easy, opening breechfaces isn't.

So I have to beg a 9mm XD slide out of Springfield at the SHOT show. Wish me luck.

[Clay1]

If you don't want to beg one off of Springfield, the brother-in-law just bought a "tactical" slide off of this guy: http://www.xd-hs2000.com/.

I don't know what else he has but it might be worth a try.

Rick