Interesting Barrel and Slide Length Observation

[Kravi]

Hey folks, I wanted some feedback from the community on this, though I'm not 100% sure where it should go (if I got it wrong, Mods, my apologies!). Additional apologies for the wall of text I vomited out here. I tried to break it up into bite sized pieces, but...

 

I'm a fairly new competitive shooter. I've been shooting 2gun for almost 2 years and I've now attended 2 local USPSA matches (my third is on Saturday). Despite being a "gun nerd", I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a skilled enough shooter to be able to transfer back and forth between different handguns with different grip angles and manuals of arms easily. I was shooting a PDP in 2gun for the past year but had issues with the red dot because I carry (and mostly train with) a G19.5 or a G45.5 (is the G45.5 redundant because there weren't any G45s prior to Gen 5?). So I broke down and got me a G17.5 for competition use so I'd have the same grip and manual of arms as my G45 (and more or less my G19). And so far, that works great.

 

Just for more background (I swear I'll get to the point eventually), my two carry guns each have a Holosun 507C (I totally should have saved money and just got the 407C because I don't use the 32 MOA circle) and my G17.5 has a 507 Comp. All three run Overwatch Precision trigger kits (I have short fingers and normal palms, the reduced travel from OP triggers means I can grip the Glock properly - it is not a competition trigger, but it is great by me), Glock Store Tungsten Guide Rods (the OEM double springs that are made of tungsten instead of plastic, but have standard spring weights), thug plugs, extended slide releases (short fingers again) and slightly enlarged mag releases. The carry guns are stippled and the competition gun has the super sandpapery talon grips on it. Striker, barrel, etc are all OEM. Obviously I'm in Carry Optics. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because, as best I can, I'm trying to compare apples to apples.

 

So when I'm shooting doubles I've come across an observation. With my G45, at 5 meters, I can double at ~.19 seconds and my follow-up shot is generally within an inch of my first shot. This is pretty consistent (minus the usual goof ups that happen to me as an amateur shooter or as I start to get tired). With my G17.5, despite a better grip, when I shoot doubles at ~.19 seconds my second shot tends to be a good two to four inches below the first shot. If I slow down to ~.22 or so, then they tighten back up.

 

I'm assuming that the additional weight of the slide causes it to nosedive a bit further when cycling, which is why the follow-up shot is so low. So at long last, my questions:

 

1. Can I get just as good at doubles with a G17.5 as I am with a G45, or will I always have to slow down? IE how much of this is a crappy grip and lack of training, vs an inevitability of physics?

2. The recoil impulse of the g17.5 is smoooooooth. I mean, it feels good, so how could I not like the gun. But part of me is wondering if I should just kit out a G45 as a competition gun and retire the 17. I do find I'm a bit more accurate with the 17.5 at distances, but just a smidge.

 

Thoughts?

 

Cheers,

Adam

 

EDIT: I am running a Streamlight TLR-1 on my Competition Gun and TLR-7As on my carry guns, so there is a slight weight difference. But not a lot.

Edited March 19 by Kravi

[shred]

1 Yes.  Try lightening the recoil spring and see what happens. 

 

 

[IVC]

While it could be the recoil spring, if you're new it's more likely that you're "driving the gun" by proactively pushing into it as you fire to minimize the muzzle raise.

 

Note that this is not a flinch (far from it), but it's still a deficiency in technique because it requires very precise timing while not providing any benefit over "static" recoil control. The correct way is to use your support hand to clamp on the gun and prevent it from "dancing" around, while not adding to it with a push from the strong hand. 

 

Try shooting at the berm, only registering where the shot fired (calling the shot). You cannot just take one sight picture and fire two shots without registering where each one of them went; you can start this way, but until you actually see when/where the second shot fired you're not there. As you speed up and focus on the second shot, you'll see at what point (split time) it starts to dip and you can then pay attention to how much you're pushing with your strong hand and ease off. 

Edited March 20 by IVC

[Kravi]

Thanks for the responses.

 

@IVC just to be clear, while I'm fairly new at USPSA, I've been shooting a while, and I've been shooting 2gun for a couple of years. My observation is in the difference between the G45 and the G17.5. I don't think I'd be driving the G17.5 more than the G45 for any reason, particularly since it has a smoother recoil impulse. So the only thing I can think of is the additional weight of the slide (and maybe flashlight) making it a bit top heavy and thus "dipping" when it completes its firing cycle.

 

As I mentioned above, with a G45 I can get nice tight pairs with a .19 split. With a G17.5, my pairs, when shooting .19 splits, are closer to 2 - 4 inches apart. If I slow down the G17.5 to .22 splits, though, they tighten back up again.

[Racinready300ex]

Even though it's happening just on one gun, I'd still bet it's you. With proper grip you should be able to return the gun pretty consistently no matter the slide length or recoil spring weight. Stuff like "prefect zero" talking about the gun just returning itself is just marketing. 

 

 

Really, you should be pushing harder. If you're shooting 19's with the 45. What happens if you shoot 16's? What happens if you back up to 7 or 10 yards? If you're consistently putting doubles in a inch it's time to push, you're going to slow. 

[Kravi]

@Racinready300ex Thanks for the response. Just to be clear, I'm not saying I don't push, and I'm not saying that I only shoot 19s with the 45. I was trying to illustrate how two guns with the exact same furniture, exact same grip, and exact everything (except for slide length) behaved differently, so I wanted to show that I could shooter faster doubles with one over the other. That isn't the end all of my training, or even how I push myself. It was just metrics for comparison. And to be clear, shooting 16s is totally ugly for me  

 

P.S. What is prefect zero?

Edited March 20 by Kravi

[Racinready300ex]

21 minutes ago, Kravi said:

@Racinready300ex Th

 

P.S. What is prefect zero?

 

A 2011 builder advertises his guns are tuned to return to zero perfectly.  Really, the slide comes back with more force then it returns with. The gun can't return itself, so you have to do it. With some guns you'll need to do more than others. But, shooting low is you over returning the gun or tensing up etc. It makes sense the guns behave differently and that you'll shoot one better then the other because of that. But, it's not really the gun it's still you. 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with trying lighter recoil springs to help reduce the problem. It's not a fix, it's more of a cover up. Don't take this wrong, I push shots low too. It's a struggle that will likely never completely go away. 

 

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Kravi said:

As I mentioned above, with a G45 I can get nice tight pairs with a .19 split. With a G17.5, my pairs, when shooting .19 splits, are closer to 2 - 4 inches apart. If I slow down the G17.5 to .22 splits, though, they tighten back up again.

The gun recoils up, then passes the original POI some time before .19 to end up a few inches low at around .19, settling at the original POI at .22. This means that something is driving the gun down and it can be the spring or you. To determine which one you will have to try a few things, from faster splits to firing just the first shot and watching the sights. 

 

And "driving the gun" is somewhat contentious concept. Even the highest level shooters adapt some specific pressure during recoil to match their particular gun, which is "driving the gun" of sorts. If the muzzle doesn't dip, or doesn't dip much, it's considered static recoil control, while in reality there is a lot of gray area. 

 

If you look at some older videos of Miculek shooting big bore revolvers fast, the muzzle starts going up and then he "readjusts his grip" and shoots it flat. The readjustment is to match the input through the hands with the massive recoil. If everything was truly "static" about the recoil control, there would never be need for any adjustment. 

[Kravi]

9 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

A 2011 builder advertises his guns are tuned to return to zero perfectly.  Really, the slide comes back with more force then it returns with. The gun can't return itself, so you have to do it. With some guns you'll need to do more than others. But, shooting low is you over returning the gun or tensing up etc. It makes sense the guns behave differently and that you'll shoot one better then the other because of that. But, it's not really the gun it's still you. 

 

 

There's nothing wrong with trying lighter recoil springs to help reduce the problem. It's not a fix, it's more of a cover up. Don't take this wrong, I push shots low too. It's a struggle that will likely never completely go away. 

 

Yeah, I spent a couple of hundred rounds at the ammo today just practicing doubles and made some good progress. It seems like it is something I can train through.

 

Interestingly, when I was doing some Bill Drills, I found the 17 super easy to keep on target and tight, even with 16 and 17 splits. The doubles are still harder for me, but I made some progress. My distance shooting is total bollocks, though. Shooting out at 25 (when trying to shoot quickly - not the super slow aimed shots) is really hard for me to get a tight group. Like I'll average an alpha and a charlie when shooting two rounds out there.

[Kravi]

5 hours ago, IVC said:

The gun recoils up, then passes the original POI some time before .19 to end up a few inches low at around .19, settling at the original POI at .22. This means that something is driving the gun down and it can be the spring or you. To determine which one you will have to try a few things, from faster splits to firing just the first shot and watching the sights. 

 

And "driving the gun" is somewhat contentious concept. Even the highest level shooters adapt some specific pressure during recoil to match their particular gun, which is "driving the gun" of sorts. If the muzzle doesn't dip, or doesn't dip much, it's considered static recoil control, while in reality there is a lot of gray area. 

 

If you look at some older videos of Miculek shooting big bore revolvers fast, the muzzle starts going up and then he "readjusts his grip" and shoots it flat. The readjustment is to match the input through the hands with the massive recoil. If everything was truly "static" about the recoil control, there would never be need for any adjustment. 

That tracks with what I'm experiencing. As I mentioned in another response, when I'm doing raw cadence (such as a Bill Drill), I can get fast splits and less spread. But something about doubles seems to trigger my "flinch", I guess. Flinching, or over driving the gun, or whatever, is something I've already wrestled with. And while I'm getting better, it still rears its ugly head when I'm running doubles. Though towards the end of my practice session today I had it tamed. Until next time....

[Racinready300ex]

On 3/20/2024 at 7:34 PM, Kravi said:

That tracks with what I'm experiencing. As I mentioned in another response, when I'm doing raw cadence (such as a Bill Drill), I can get fast splits and less spread. But something about doubles seems to trigger my "flinch", I guess. Flinching, or over driving the gun, or whatever, is something I've already wrestled with. And while I'm getting better, it still rears its ugly head when I'm running doubles. Though towards the end of my practice session today I had it tamed. Until next time....

 

Do you do doubles like bop,bop.......bop,bop......bop,bop....? like a set of 3 or 4 pairs. That's typically how I do them.

 

Want to try trigger that flinch a little more. Use a timer, on the beep shoot the pair, and repeat. That can help to induce that problem. You have to make the problem happen in practice to really fix it IMO. You have to not tense that hand up or what ever you're doing to drive the gun down. 

[Kravi]

On 3/22/2024 at 2:05 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

Do you do doubles like bop,bop.......bop,bop......bop,bop....? like a set of 3 or 4 pairs. That's typically how I do them.

 

Want to try trigger that flinch a little more. Use a timer, on the beep shoot the pair, and repeat. That can help to induce that problem. You have to make the problem happen in practice to really fix it IMO. You have to not tense that hand up or what ever you're doing to drive the gun down. 

I usually load up 6 rounds and do three "sets" of doubles, much like you suggested.

 

Today I (before reading this) did a single set of doubles at a time, triggered by my timer (coincidence?). It does tend to trigger my flinch. I made some progress, but it is irritating to me how much my reflexes are triggered to a flinch response. It is something with my parasympathetic nervous system, methinks.

 

Cheers,

Adam