Glock Trigger

[the duck of death]

What are the secrets of getting a light trigger pull in a G, I'm talking under 2lbs. Don't suggest 3.5 connector or the .25 trigger. I want Grad course instruction on how to do a 1 1/4lb trigger. I know how to send the G to Charlie or Ralph--I want to know how to do it myself. I'm down to 2lbs and I need that final tidbit of knowledge to get the really GOOD Glock trigger pull.

Donations of knowlege will be greatly appreciated.

Edited December 24, 2005 by the duck of death

[cautery]

There is no ONE secret to Glock trigger work in the "under 2 lbs" realm. Down to about 2lbs or so, it's "simply" a matter of doing certain mechanical modifications relatively competently.

Under 2lbs, is where skill, experience, and frankly a lot of time comes in. At this point, it's a matter of doing EVERY mod perfectly... At this point, doing things most folks never think of start yielding benefits... Actually, the benefits are there even above 2 lbs, but are simply not revealed until you get all of the gross improvements done.

Down below 2lbs (actually, right around <3lbs), it becomes more and more important that all of the mods be done such that they all "fit" together in a balanced approach, or you start introducing reliability/safety problems into the equation.

I don't do Glock triggers commercially, but I probably have almost as many hours of research, trial and error, and testing into the process as any other person around... You will definitely find a lot of folks who disagree with me, and say that it doesn't take nearly the work/skill that I say is required, but I simply speak from my own experience... which is limited to my own weapons. (BTW, I am a much better tinkerer, than I am a shooter)

How to go below 2lbs depends a lot on how you got to 2lbs in the first place, and how reliable the pistol is at this point.

Personally, I do not believe that the BEST results are going to be attained without thoughtful/experienced metal working.

You cannot polish your way to a top trigger job... You HAVE to know how the system works, what engagement points are critical, what surface planes need to be at each point, etc. Then you need to start with good parts, put the right surfaces (flat, true, and at the correct relative angles) on them with the proper tools (files, stones), and THEN polish them (more stones, compounds, etc)...

Additionally, I have come to the conclusion that from a sheer pull weight stand-point, having the PERFECT balance between the striker spring and trigger spring is probably the most important part of the job. A lot of pretty good compromises have been achieved with various combinations of reduced power striker springs, relocated trigger spring holes, and different off-the-shelf replacement trigger springs.

However, my experiements with making custom trigger springs leads me to believe that you can achieve the same/better results using a stock striker spring and a custom wound/terminated trigger springs (all other mods being equal).... thus eliminating the real/fabled light strike worry/problem.

Let me back up a second....

Strictly speaking, trigger pull weight boils down to 2 main things in a Glock: Opposing spring weights (and the delta between them), and friction between moving parts.

1) Achieving an opposing spring balance that a) reduces trigger pull weight to a minimum, while simulataneously provides enough of a striker spring +delta to provide a reliable reset, becomes a "fine art" down at the <2lbs point. This step is actually some 80-90% of the game.

2) Reducing/avoiding/eliminating friction at its extreme involves intimate understanding of exactly how all the pistols parts work/act as assembled; nature of friction/physics, and through theory/experience/art, how to eliminate/avoid/reduce friction. This is only about 10-20% of the game, but as it turns out in all extreme pursuits, it is the most important, most time consuming, and hence the most expensive part of the process.

3) As in ALL engineering projects, there are tradeoffs. Money, time, performance... Ultimate performance is achieved at the drastic increase and expense of the other two. Further reduction in the time resource can be attained at the further enormous increase of the remaining money resource.

Example... the 25 cent trigger job... You get a "big" improvement... say 60% of the ultimate 100% theoretical maximum... It ony costs you a quarter...

You can get to say 80% with Ralph's drop in solution for what $50-60... Pretty good balance... hence his good success in the market.

You can get to say the 90% mark with Vanek's hand fit system for what... $200.00 or so.... <numbers not exact>

The point is that each incremental movement toward the theoretical 100% becomes increasingly more expensive... and it is not a linear increase. Cost per unit goes up by some definable function well in excess of linear.

This phenomena (not really a phenmena) is present anywhere you are going for that "last little bit" in any pursuit... cars, guns, computers, missiles, etc...

All of the above is ONLY addressing trigger pull weight. Trigger pull QUALITY is an entirely different matter altogether.

AND this is the primary reason I don't do Glock trigger jobs commercially.

1) I am a perfectionist (to put it mildly), and would find it unacceptable to put my name on a trigger job that wasn't the "BEST" available.

2) To do the "BEST available" job would require me to expend a huge amount of time/resources on each job.... thus necessitating that I do it as a full time pursuit.

3) This expense of resources would have to be passed on with a substantial markup (as I do like to be able to pay my bills, eat, have a place to live).

4) The market would not support the price I would have to charge in sufficient quantity for me to ultimately earn a sustainable living. The average Glock owner is simply NOT going to pay better than $300 for a 95+% trigger job on a pistol they bought for $600.00 or less.

Actually, let's do the math for the hypothetical guy wanting to go into business full-time as a Glock trigger man... Let's say that he currently makes $60,000 a year. That means he needs to replace a $5000.00 a month job doing triggers at a minimum.

OK... let's use some of my data... Currently, to do a 95%+ job on a Glock trigger job, it would take me approximately 2 FULL days (including the overhead time of receiving, bookwork, storing, shipping, etc.) per weapon.

OK...That mean is I NEVER took a day off, I could do 15 jobs a month. $5000/15 = $333.33 per job, not including excise tax, shipping, or any of the other overhead like FFL licensing, etc, etc, etc...

Taking off on Sundays only raises the price to $385.00 or so... And THIS is assuming that you ALWAYS had exactly the number of jobs you needed to fill your work schedule... At that price, I don't think you'd be able to get 156-180 trigger jobs a year... year after year.

Anyway... I didn't mean to drift off into an economic lecture, but it is relevant actually...

I started out to say that there are no "secrets" really. What there are are "techniques" that folks like Vanek, Sotelo, CGR, et al. have spent tons of time, money, sweat, talent developing. A LOT of the base knowledge is already public knowledge. Those guys make part of their living off doing Glock trigger work, selling parts, etc.

I think it is unreasonable to expect them (or anyone) to give away for free what they spent time and money (and time = money) to discover, develop, learn, master, etc.

Finally, BECAUSE Glock pistols are not as expensive to acquire initially, and because they are not "precision" match pistols out of the box, the guys that work on them and/or develop improvements for them aren't regarded as "real" gunsmiths, or craftsmen, etc. Hence, many folks similarly dismiss their work/achievments as not being as "valuable" or that they should not have to pay for the knowledge or expertise (as opposed to "real" smiths who work on 1911/2011s).

One again... this is all just my opinion.

[the duck of death]

Thanks, I went back and checked some engagement surfaces. Stoned, trued and repolished, made a difference. You're right when almost THERE special attention to everything is critical. The G is 100% reliable with all the mods.

[Kimberkid]

I dont mean to slow down your pursuit for the ultimate trigger, or discourage you in any way, but...

There is a point at which one might be best off calling it good enough. If it costs you a ton of time and a bunch of money in ruined parts, will the eventual trigger be worth it? Will you really notice another 1/4 lb. of pull? Would you be better off as a shooter spending that same tinker time practicing? Who ever made the rule that lighter is better?

If this is more a quest of your personal modification skills, then by all means pursue it with gusto, but if you are looking to get the best trigger possible, in an attempt to help yourself shoot better, I'd suggest shooting what ya got.

Best of luck in your endeavor.

[Steve Moneypenny]

What will make this all seem worse is when you find masters and grand masters who can make a super light trigger shooting a heavier trigger and beating you with it

Instances

Dave sevigny 5 pounds every pull the entire world shoot... other guns 5 pound DA pull first shot each there after 5 pounds.

Ernie langdon shooting Berettas a few years ago. My gun with a 7 pound DA 3.5 pound SA was lighter than his competition gun.

everything isn't in the miniscule weight of the trigger. but if that't your goal... good luck!

[ryucasta]

Steve,

I agree with you that if you are going to compete in the IPSC Production division (Non-USPSA) then there is no point in getting a trigger job because of the 5 lb rule. But how well do you honestly believe that a GM like Dave would do with a 5 lb trigger in the Open or Standard/Limited division using that same trigger when all the other GM’s he will be competing against will be using triggers that are much lighter than 5 lbs.

cautery,

Great post!

Edited December 26, 2005 by ryucasta

[Chuck Anderson]

Pretty close to the way that he does now. If I remember right Dave uses about a 4 lb trigger in his production gun, even though he could go much lighter. I don't see any reason that he would use a lighter one in his limited gun.

[the duck of death]

Come on out there, someone who knows please give a description of where to relocate the trigger on the bar? (Pictures would be appreciated)

I don't want discussions of why I shouldn't need a light trigger, please just an answer the above question.

Edited December 26, 2005 by the duck of death

[Bugs Bunny]

"Trigger pull QUALITY is an entirely different matter altogether."

A "nail-head" statement for sure!