Scoring Question

[rmcdave]

At our local match today, I was the closest thing to a RO on our squad and I ran into a scoring siuation that I was unsure how to handle. The stage consisted of a tight array of 5 targets. Four of them were arranged in kind of a square -- 2 on the top, and 2 on the bottom. In the center of the square there was a partial hardcover target. A generous helping of no-shoots was thrown in to make things interesting. The stage instructions said to engage T1-T5 with 2 shots each, perform a mandatory reload, and engage T1-T5 with one shot each using strong hand only. Virginia Count.

The shooter in question put 2 shots each on T1-T4 but forgot about T5 (the hardcover target in the middle of the array). He reloads, goes strong hand, puts 1 shot each on T1-T4. When he gets to T5 he realizes that there are no shots on it, so he fires three shots at it. Two A's and 1 into the black hardcover portion.

How many procedurals should be given? I reasoned that there should be 2 extra shot penalties. Since there were only 15 holes in the targets there wouldn't be any extra hits. There would be no FTE since there were holes on each target.

Later in the day I asked some veteran shooters on another squad how they would score it. They thought I was correct on the 2 extra shots, but said they would have assessed a FTE in addition. I couldn't understand how I could give an FTE to a target that had holes in it. Maybe if there was more than 1 string, but not in this situation.

What was the proper way to score this?

Thanks,

Dave

[Clay1]

OK, I'm new at this but let me insert foot in mouth and see how many agree with me or point me in a better direction.

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The

Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly

record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were

imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in

the written stage briefing will incur 1 procedural penalty for each

occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant

advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be

assessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single

penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required

position or stance).

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least

one round will incur 1 procedural penalty per target, plus the

applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of

Rules 9.2.4.5 or 9.9.2 apply.

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count or Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified

in a component string or stage), will each incur one

procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more

than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be

awarded.

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets

in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will

each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard

cover and/or penalty targets are not treated as Extra Hits.

US9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the required rounds

on a target, but shooting at fewer targets than specified in

any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target not

engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the

written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots.

The above rules apply, now how to score it. I believe since he did not fire two rounds at T5 he gets a FTE and two misses. After the reload he get an extra shot PE but because it did not score (hit hardcover) he does not get an extra hit PE.

Again, I'm new at this ROing stuff so I will easily yield to those more experienced.

Rick

[AZ38super]

I have not taken any RO classes so I want a comment at this before the pros step in.

Here is my take as what can apply:

per 10.2.2 - 1 procedural penalty

per 10.2.7 - 1 procedural penalty & 2 misses

per 9.4.5.1 - 1 procedural penalty

for a total of 3 procedural penalties and 2 misses.

But I know most people scoring at one of our local matches would score it as

1 procedural penalty & 2 misses.

Now I want to see the correct answer.

[Nik Habicht]

1 procedural for not following the stage description --- and whatever hits/misses actually showed on the targets.

10.2.2. doesn't apply --- there's no advantage gained by taking more shots strong hand only or by firing at one target after the reload. (you might be able to convince me there if the shooter was shooting an eight round gun or a revolver)

9.4.5.1 - 9.4.5.3 don't apply because there were no strings, and there weren't any extra shots fired. There were shots fired at the wrong time --- hence one procedural.....

[GeorgeInNePa]

1 procedural for not following the stage description --- and whatever hits/misses actually showed on the targets.

10.2.2. doesn't apply --- there's no advantage gained by taking more shots strong hand only or by firing at one target after the reload. (you might be able to convince me there if the shooter was shooting an eight round gun or a revolver)

9.4.5.1 - 9.4.5.3 don't apply because there were no strings, and there weren't any extra shots fired. There were shots fired at the wrong time --- hence one procedural.....

I agree

[scooterj]

what nik said

[SteveZ]

....and tell the course designer that this stage needs to be a Standard Exercise because of the weak hand only requirement and therefore becomes more than one string.

[davidball]

Not a legal stage but . . .

I would assess 2 extra shot procedurals plus the miss as rmcdave did originally.

Forgetting to engage a target is not a failure to comply with stage instructions, in my view, especially since there would be no advantage in intentionally forgetting the target on the first part of the stage and then making the shots up strong hand only.

Better stage design would avoid the controversy.

[LPatterson]

OK, I'm new at this but let me insert foot in mouth and see how many agree with me or point me in a better direction.

10.1.1 Procedural penalties are imposed when a competitor fails to comply with procedures specified in a written stage briefing. The

Range Officer imposing the procedural penalties must clearly

record the number of penalties, and the reason why they were

imposed, on the competitor’s score sheet.

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in

the written stage briefing will incur 1 procedural penalty for each

occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant

advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be

assessed 1 procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single

penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required

position or stance).

10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least

one round will incur 1 procedural penalty per target, plus the

applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of

Rules 9.2.4.5 or 9.9.2 apply.

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count or Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.5.1 Extra shots (i.e. shots fired in excess of the number specified

in a component string or stage), will each incur one

procedural penalty. Additionally, during scoring, no more

than the specified number and highest scoring hits will be

awarded.

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets

in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will

each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard

cover and/or penalty targets are not treated as Extra Hits.

US9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. shooting more than the required rounds

on a target, but shooting at fewer targets than specified in

any string), will incur one procedural penalty per target not

engaged in any string. This penalty will not be applied if the

written stage briefing specifically authorizes stacked shots.

The above rules apply, now how to score it. I believe since he did not fire two rounds at T5 he gets a FTE and two misses. After the reload he get an extra shot PE but because it did not score (hit hardcover) he does not get an extra hit PE.

Again, I'm new at this ROing stuff so I will easily yield to those more experienced.

Rick

As davidball said not a legal stage per 1.2.1.2. So how would I score it? 1 Procedural per 10.2.2 for not shooting at all targets before the mandatory reload & 1 mike because there were not 3 hits in the scoring portion in T5. The first shot in T5 after the mandatory reload satisfied the requirements for that portion of the stage. The last 2 shots were fired freestyle as make-up shots within the # requirement of the stage for Virginia Count. No extra shots were fired.

[Shooter Grrl]

1 procedural for not following the stage description --- and whatever hits/misses actually showed on the targets.

10.2.2. doesn't apply --- there's no advantage gained by taking more shots strong hand only or by firing at one target after the reload. (you might be able to convince me there if the shooter was shooting an eight round gun or a revolver)

9.4.5.1 - 9.4.5.3 don't apply because there were no strings, and there weren't any extra shots fired. There were shots fired at the wrong time --- hence one procedural.....

Yup - that's the answer!

[davidball]

The last 2 shots were fired freestyle as make-up shots within the # requirement of the stage for Virginia Count. No extra shots were fired.

I'm changing my mind to agree with this interpretation . . . there were no extra shots.

1 penalty for not following procedure + misses.

The best answer is better stage design. Although the description sounded like fun, it is an RO headache.

Edited December 19, 2005 by davidball

[GeorgeInNePa]

Not a legal stage but . . .

I would assess 2 extra shot procedurals plus the miss as rmcdave did originally.

Forgetting to engage a target is not a failure to comply with stage instructions, in my view, especially since there would be no advantage in intentionally forgetting the target on the first part of the stage and then making the shots up strong hand only.

Better stage design would avoid the controversy.

How do you give two extra shot procedurals when the shooter fired only the required number of rounds? It was one string, 15 rounds required. The shooter fired 15 rounds.

ETA:

Nevermind, I posted this before I read your last post.

Edited December 19, 2005 by GeorgeInNePa

[Liota]

+1 for Nik

[rmcdave]

Thanks guys (and gals). I knew I could count on you to come up with the correct answer.

Dave