IPSC, Mini-Rifle, Coupled Magazines, "Loaded"

[ard212]

Well, I was having a friendly conversation with another shooter after a match, and this situation came up, Mini-Rifle, IPSC rules, when starting "loaded", is it OK to start with a magazine that's coupled to another one ? I didn't find anything on the rule book that said it wasn't allowed, the other shooter mentioned something about a minimum distance that a magazine not attached to the gun must have from it at the start signal, never heard about anything like that, but then again, never shot Mini-Rifle, only PCC and Shotgun Open Division, so, no couplers allowed there.

 

Thanks and sorry if this a very dumb question

[Schutzenmeister]

Under IPSC PCC rules you CANNOT couple magazines together ... HOWEVER - Mini Rifle IS NOT PCC!  There is no proscription in the Mini Rifle Rules which would prevent this!

 

Please note the maximum rounds loaded for mini rifle is 30 (+1 in the chamber.)  While two magazines coupled together have generally been deemed two separate magazines, mags such as the Ruger BX-25x2 10/22 .22LR 50-Round Factory Magazine have generally been ruled as ONE magazine ... A subtile difference, I know.  But the practical effect is that while you can fully load two 25-round mags and fasten them together and still be legal, the factory made single mag that does the same thing (but is one piece) means you could only load a total of 30 rounds between the two ends.

 

I know ... dumb as dirt.  But that's the best information I've ever been able to get out of IPSC and IROA on the subject.  This will be a bigger question with the 1st IPSC Mini Rifle WS coming up in 2023.  I will try to get better clarification on the subject, but at the moment I have other fish to fry.  I'll get back on this one sometime after the Pan American HG Championship.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Schutzenmeister

[ard212]

21 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Under IPSC PCC rules you CANNOT couple magazines together ... HOWEVER - Mini Rifle IS NOT PCC!  There is no proscription in the Mini Rifle Rules which would prevent this!

 

Please note the maximum rounds loaded for mini rifle is 30 (+1 in the chamber.)  While two magazines coupled together have generally been deemed two separate magazines, mags such as the Ruger BX-25x2 10/22 .22LR 50-Round Factory Magazine have generally been ruled as ONE magazine ... A subtile difference, I know.  But the practical effect is that while you can fully load two 25-round mags and fasten them together and still be legal, the factory made single mag that does the same thing (but is one piece) means you could only load a total of 30 rounds between the two ends.

 

I know ... dumb as dirt.  But that's the best information I've ever been able to get out of IPSC and IROA on the subject.  This will be a bigger question with the 1st IPSC Mini Rifle WS coming up in 2023.  I will try to get better clarification on the subject, but at the moment I have other fish to fry.  I'll get back on this one sometime after the Pan American HG Championship.

First of all, thanks for all the info, yes, I know that couplers are not allowed on PCC, and that they're allowed on Mini Rifle, my question is, on Mini Rifle, on a loaded start, is there any rule that would prevent me from starting with a coupled magazine inserted into the gun ?

[Schutzenmeister]

Sorry ... Thought I answered that.  I can find no rule for Mini Rifle that would prevent that.

[ard212]

1 hour ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Sorry ... Thought I answered that.  I can find no rule for Mini Rifle that would prevent that.

Thanks, yeah, that's exactly where I currently stand.

[Schutzenmeister]

Perhaps more to the point ... Do it.  If the RO/CRO/RM objects, request they show you WHERE in the rules it is prohibited.

 

As an IROA RM myself, I would not stop you from doing it unless someone higher up my food chain could show me why I was wrong.

[ard212]

17 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

Perhaps more to the point ... Do it.  If the RO/CRO/RM objects, request they show you WHERE in the rules it is prohibited.

 

As an IROA RM myself, I would not stop you from doing it unless someone higher up my food chain could show me why I was wrong.

Seems like a good idea, worst case scenario they don't start you and thet point as to where in the rules does it say it's not allowed.

 

Thanks again !

[Kiwishoot]

Something to consider.....you may have a problem pulling a coupled mag from a pouch though, as per Appendix D max distance of magazines from the body of 50mm ?

[Schutzenmeister]

5 hours ago, Kiwishoot said:

Something to consider.....you may have a problem pulling a coupled mag from a pouch though, as per Appendix D max distance of magazines from the body of 50mm ?

 

Given the course design requirements (round counts) in Chapter 1, and the 3/2/1 stage mix requirements, there should be no real reason (save some malfunction with his equipment) for a shooter to actually need to go to his belt for a reload given a properly configured magazine coupling in this discipline.  But it is always a good idea to carry a spare or two!

[Nolan]

7 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Given the course design requirements (round counts) in Chapter 1, and the 3/2/1 stage mix requirements, there should be no real reason (save some malfunction with his equipment) for a shooter to actually need to go to his belt for a reload given a properly configured magazine coupling in this discipline.  But it is always a good idea to carry a spare or two!

 

This!

 

In all the decades I've been shooting competitively, I have never finished a stage and thought "Boy, I wish I hadn't brought all this ammo with me!"

 

I have thought the opposite several times, much to my regret.

 

Nolan

[ard212]

On 8/23/2022 at 6:09 AM, Kiwishoot said:

Appendix D max distance of magazines from the body of 50mm ?

Well, that was what the other shooter pointed to me, wouldn't this be a problem if you wanted to start with a coupled magazine on a loaded start ?

[Schutzenmeister]

I really think you're over-reading the rule ... However -

 

I will be working closley with the VP of IROA and several folks somewhat more versed in the various IPSC "rifle rules books" (R, PCC, MR) than I am for several weeks in September.  I'll pose these questions to them and get back to you in October.

 

In the meantime ... 

 

- There is nothing in the MR rules that should prohibit the use of magazines coupled together.

 

- Similarly, there is nothing I can find that would prohibit starting with such a pair (trio?) of magazines in the gun at the start signal.

 

- Measurement (50mm) as you describe is taken from the inside of the magazine to the shooter's torso ... not from the outside of the second magazine affixed to the first ... unless I'm missing something.

 

- I would opine that a WSB stating you could not do this might run afoul of 8.1.4.

 

Good luck, good shooting ... I will get back to this AFTER the PanAm HG Championships.

[ard212]

9 hours ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I really think you're over-reading the rule ... However -

 

I will be working closley with the VP of IROA and several folks somewhat more versed in the various IPSC "rifle rules books" (R, PCC, MR) than I am for several weeks in September.  I'll pose these questions to them and get back to you in October.

 

In the meantime ... 

 

- There is nothing in the MR rules that should prohibit the use of magazines coupled together.

 

- Similarly, there is nothing I can find that would prohibit starting with such a pair (trio?) of magazines in the gun at the start signal.

 

- Measurement (50mm) as you describe is taken from the inside of the magazine to the shooter's torso ... not from the outside of the second magazine affixed to the first ... unless I'm missing something.

 

- I would opine that a WSB stating you could not do this might run afoul of 8.1.4.

 

Good luck, good shooting ... I will get back to this AFTER the PanAm HG Championships.

Thanks, will surely be interesting to know what insight those people might have about this !

 

No, don't me wrong, I think it's perfectly OK within the rules, I'm just trying to settle a disagreement I had with another shooter.

 

Again, thanks and good luck with the match

[Kiwishoot]

On 8/25/2022 at 6:16 AM, ard212 said:

Well, that was what the other shooter pointed to me, wouldn't this be a problem if you wanted to start with a coupled magazine on a loaded start ?

Appendix D relates to magazines on your belt. So technically it's fine to start with a coupled mag in the gun, but having one on your belt could be the point of discussion.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Kiwishoot
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