What About The Cz 75 Champion

[T8WG]

I have never shot a match but I am seriously considering purchasing a CZ 75 Champion and trying out the sport, just wondering what the general consensus is on the gun for use in IPSC shooting on a entry level.

Thanks for your help.

[Matthew_Mink]

The Champion is a great gun. Its not really an entry level gun though. With the comp, that would put you in Open division, so you would need optics to be competitive.

If I were you and like the CZ platform, get a CZ 75B, or the CZ 75 SP01 and start in Production division, probably the best and cheapest place to start. I didn't start there, but ended up there and enjoy it.

[eerw]

Just so I am clear..

the CZ champion is the single action compensated pistol built on the small frame CZ75 available in 9mm and .40....is that right???

You also said IPSC..so are someplace other than the US..or would you be shooting USPSA..

The Champion is a pretty cool gun..but I think would take some effort to make it competitive..in Open Division..you would need to put a scope on it..and be able to find some big sticks....this is all doable..you can find red dots..and the CZ 25 round mags can be made to fit 28-29 rounds and to fit the mag guage.

possibly better alternatives to starting out in the sport:

if in the US..shoot L10 with a CZ 75 SA in 40

shoot production with a CZ75, 85 or SP01

or shoot Limited with a CZ Tactical Sport in 40

of course there are lots of other guns types to shoot that are great entry gun for the different divisions...

Glocks, Sigs, STI/SV Springfields, etc

[Carlos]

My good friend Vlad is reluctantly selling the CZ-75 Champoin he has owned since 2003; it equiped with the OKO dot sight & dedicated CZ mount. It is the most reliable open gun I have ever shot. The gun has only been shot in a few competitions & all with Minor ammo. There are pictures and description on www.shootersparadise.com in the classifieds.

[T8WG]

Thanks for the input, couple of questions, why the .40 instead of the 9mm and which class would be appropriate if you wanted to use the same gun in IDPA. Could you shoot the Tatical sport in that type of event.

Thanks

[ChuckS]

Thanks for the input, couple of questions, why the .40 instead of the 9mm and which class would be appropriate if you wanted to use the same gun in IDPA. Could you shoot the Tatical sport in that type of event.

Thanks

If you want to be scored major in limited and limited-10 USPSA classes you need .40 as a minimum caliber. 9x19 can go major in Open class. All production is scored minor.

If the gun is double action you could shoot it in IDPA SSP and ESP

If the gun is single action only, you can shoot it in ESP

If the gun is compensated, you can not use it in IDPA

(caveat: there are weight limits and other rules in the IDPA rule book. Better check it out)

Have fun,

Chuck

Edited November 20, 2005 by ChuckS

[Carlos]

Champion has a dedicated compensator & is not welcome at any IDPA match. The .40 version might be allowed in IPSC's Modified division, though it would have to fit the box.

[Radical Precision Designs]

A good friend of mine, and customer had both the 9mm and .40 S&W versions of the Champion. I got to shoot both of them with the adjustable sights and with the J-Point red dot sights. Nice handling guns... within their limitations. Eventually I sold for her (my friend /customer) the .40 cal version and she still has the 9mm which she uses now and then.

The handicap that this gun has as someone described above, is that they are built on the "small" frame platform, which will not allow you to load either caliber "long" for optimum usage of the compensator. The compensator in itself is not sufficiently effective with the standard lenght (factory?)ammo. I suppose if you were really carefull, loads could be made for it in 9mm "major". As it is, my friend does not feel comfortable with this and only uses factory ammo, shooting "minor", and is very happy that way, but obviously not completely competitive. With the .40 cal, since you must load short, the compensator doesn't seem as effective, but could be worked with. The real issue is how it would compare to the "norm/standard" S_I guns, and that is not really approachable within the limitations imposed. Maybe for shooting "steel"?????????

[Flexmoney]

I have never shot a match but I am seriously considering purchasing a CZ 75 Champion and trying out the sport, just wondering what the general consensus is on the gun for use in IPSC shooting on a entry level.

Thanks for your help.

The CA 75 Champion is an unlikely gun for entry level in IPSC. The only Division that it would be legal in is Open division. There it would be competing against 28+ round guns with red-dot sights, shooting hand-made loads (which require a bit of expertise to develop). Not impossible to setup, I wouldn't think, but not a likely choice.

CZ makes a number of guns that would be a better fit, depending on what you might be looking for. If you are OK with a double-action first shot, then they have some great choices for Production division (9mm friendly). If you really want a single-action first shot, then you will likely want to look at one of their guns in 40 or 45 for Limited-10 division.

For many, a big choice in the decision process is the budget and whether you reload or not.

Photo from: http://www.cz-usa.com/index.php

[Carlos]

RPD asked: "The real issue is how it would compare to the "norm/standard" S_I guns, and that is not really approachable within the limitations imposed. Maybe for shooting "steel"?????????"

How does the Champion compare to STI/SV for Steel? The answer is:

ITS BETTER THAN THE BEST STI/SV GUNS EVER BUILT!

Now, what support could I possibly have for such an outlandish statement? A. www.ghostholster.com

The CZ Champion went head-to-head against the very bust custom built STI & SV handguns in the hands of the very best handgun shooters in the USA; at the end of it, Angus Hobdel was declared Grand Champion at the STI - American

Handgunner World Shoot-Off Championship. Sure, sure, I know - its the Indian, etc. etc. etc. - but as far as just the equipment required, can we at least agree that the CZ Champion proved its fully capable of winning at Steel?

Look, I do not own a Champion & I am not about to sell my STIs or my SVs (even my SV Open gun in 9x23). I am mostly a USPSA shooter & not a Steel shooter. For those wanting the best steel gun money can buy, both CZ and Tanfoglio make outstanding guns that most of us in the US would never consider buying. Maybe its time we reconsider.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[T8WG]

I'm getting an education here, all this information has been helpful. Sounds like the CZ 75 SA .40 might give me the most options for USPSA and IDPA. I guess the next question should be how does this pistol compare to other manufactures competetive models

Thanks again for all the help.

[eerw]

I'm getting an education here, all this information has been helpful. Sounds like the CZ 75 SA .40 might give me the most options for USPSA and IDPA. I guess the next question should be how does this pistol compare to other manufactures competetive models

Thanks again for all the help.

against other guns it would compete against and for the $$$ spent..the CZ75 SA is a great value..

it would compete favorably in USPSA L10 and IDPA ESP against all the other possible contenders of 1911s, Glocks,etc..

[XRe]

As it is, my friend does not feel comfortable with this and only uses factory ammo, shooting "minor", and is very happy that way, but obviously not completely competitive.

Venry, I used to run a P9 chambered in 9x21, built on a short frame. It could make 175PF Major handily, even w/ 125s. However, I ran 130s w/ 3N37. Seemed to be a very safe load, and shot very soft in my gun. The comp design was slightly different, but... 9x19 loads using the same bullet and powder should be similar, since I was loading to 9x19 lengths...

Search for Jeff Maas' load web site. My 135gr load is in his 9x21 data. I was loading 7.9gr 3N37 at 1.150" OAL. My 130 load was 8.2gr 3N37 at the same OAL. Also, I was running an 11# spring in the gun. A welded big stick used to hold 25 rounds, so it doesn't have to be completely uncompetitive

[Radical Precision Designs]

As it is, my friend does not feel comfortable with this and only uses factory ammo, shooting "minor", and is very happy that way, but obviously not completely competitive.

Venry, I used to run a P9 chambered in 9x21, built on a short frame. It could make 175PF Major handily, even w/ 125s. However, I ran 130s w/ 3N37. Seemed to be a very safe load, and shot very soft in my gun. The comp design was slightly different, but... 9x19 loads using the same bullet and powder should be similar, since I was loading to 9x19 lengths...

Search for Jeff Maas' load web site. My 135gr load is in his 9x21 data. I was loading 7.9gr 3N37 at 1.150" OAL. My 130 load was 8.2gr 3N37 at the same OAL. Also, I was running an 11# spring in the gun. A welded big stick used to hold 25 rounds, so it doesn't have to be completely uncompetitive

That load is definetely hefty for "130 gr. bullets seated to 1.150", probably starting to cmpress it a little bit. One of my customers is using similar specs but with 124 gr.JHP, and making major easily. (Of course "she" is using one of my 6" barreled Hyper- Comps.

)

Personally, I "do" like the Champion CZ and it "does" have great un-exploited potential. Biggest issue is finding "long" mags from the factory. (Not the home welded kind) With the power factor having been lowered, a new door has been opened. Now all is needed is a few people to take up their "rank and file" daily use to give it more exposure, not just a few "big factory hired hands". The "entry level" affordable price is a big plus.

Shucks, maybe CZ should give me one of these guns for "promoting" them here?

[XRe]

That load is definetely hefty for "130 gr. bullets seated to 1.150", probably starting to cmpress it a little bit.

We're drifting a bit, here, but... I won't deny it was a high pressure load - any race gun at 175PF (really, 180) is a rifle pressure load, anyhow. Compressed loads w/ VV powder are pretty well explored and understood - their powders seem to perform just fine and in a linear fashion when compressed. Actually, if either of those loads was compressed, it wasn't more than 5% or so - I recall measuring it, at one point, and figured that the bullet was maybe *just* touching the top of the powder column.. BTW - this load seemed to be lower pressure than the 540 load it replaced

In my .38 SuperComp race gun, I was definitely +5% compressed w/ N350 and a 124. No issues there, either.

One of my customers is using similar specs but with 124 gr.JHP, and making major easily. (Of course "she" is using one of my 6" barreled Hyper- Comps.

)

And 165PF... this was the "old" days, remember

Personally, I "do" like the Champion CZ and it "does" have great un-exploited potential. Biggest issue is finding "long" mags from the factory. (Not the home welded kind)

Caspians were (or maybe still are) that way forever, and it didn't stop anyone. They're somewhat a pain to do, but only need to be done once. Not ideal, I agree, but if you want to run that platform, pretty much essential.

With the power factor having been lowered, a new door has been opened. Now all is needed is a few people to take up their "rank and file" daily use to give it more exposure, not just a few "big factory hired hands". The "entry level" affordable price is a big plus.

Shucks, maybe CZ should give me one of these guns for "promoting" them here?

I've always liked the feel of the small frame CZ-ish platform. The frame just fits my hand like a glove. There've always been issues with running it that made the 1911 based guns easier to deal with, once high-caps came along. We need a resurgence of the right parts, right smithing, etc (good crisp sub 2# trigger jobs with no creep are apparently quite a bit of work, what with welding up the sear block and all that). Roll pins ain't fun, either. But... if the right combo came along that way, I'd certainly give it serious thought

[eerw]

I've always liked the feel of the small frame CZ-ish platform. The frame just fits my hand like a glove. There've always been issues with running it that made the 1911 based guns easier to deal with, once high-caps came along. We need a resurgence of the right parts, right smithing, etc (good crisp sub 2# trigger jobs with no creep are apparently quite a bit of work, what with welding up the sear block and all that). Roll pins ain't fun, either. But... if the right combo came along that way, I'd certainly give it serious thought

Still drifting..

I am with you...I shot a P9 for a number of years..shooting 125 and 115 bullets to the old major of 175..

I think making a CZ run major would not be a difficult thing given you have a gunsmith that has worked on P9. The new Tactical Sport in 9mm would be a great platform...my hope would be that one could be built on a 75bSA or a Champion also...

anyway..back to our thread..

[Matthew_Mink]

Well, I've got the trigger covered. I've done some CZ 75 B SA's with 1.3# triggers. Light, crisp, and set off anything.

[XRe]

Well, I've got the trigger covered. I've done some CZ 75 B SA's with 1.3# triggers. Light, crisp, and set off anything.

I suspect maybe the CZs are better made than the EAAs and P-9s were when they were the thing to build. Building one was similar to building an older Para frame - you might be in for a *lot* of welding and recutting, depending on the frame. To get a good trigger job, you'd have to weld up and recut the sear block to be square and fit tight, and therefore not cause creep in the trigger pull.

Yeah... it'd be interesting to see what would happen

[Radical Precision Designs]

Well, all this talk of CZ Champions got my "juices" flowing... and since CZ didn't call me to sponsor me with one, I did the next best thing: I called my friend Iris.

She owns the 9mm CZ Champion I spoke of before, and lately is has been sitting there just collecting dust. Well, no more. Sunday she will bring it to a local match where she will shoot it once more. After the match, she is handing it over to me. It seems there is another one of my "toys" she wants, and a trade is in the works. Several 15 round mags come with it, along with the JP Red dot sight I installed in it some time ago (plus the original adj. iron -sigths).

This gun went back to the "factory" for a super trigger job, and it is sweet the way it is. Now the question is, "to weld or not to weld" (magazines that is!)

I definetely need to find a "quick source" for an extra lenght barrel, longer than the original extended one that comes with it for use with my Hyper-Comp. Of course I will be installling a Hyper-Comp. What else would I be doing with it? But if I don't find a quick source for the barrel, I will work on it with whatever extension is there. I can feel the wheels turning in my head already.

[eerw]

Now the question is, "to weld or not to weld" (magazines that is!)

Look forward to your results..

might try the CZ 25 round mag..

here is mine..I had to angle the bottom to fit the gauge...replaced the mag spring with a slightly shorter SP01 mag spring..no work on the follower and I got a reloadable 28 round mag...figure..if follower is shortened slightly and more tweaking on the mag spring to balance it all..29 would be possible..

so far has run well playing around with it in my SP01

[XRe]

Tanfoglio apparently makes a 6" barrel. Bar-Sto could probably make one, too, when they do their next run of CZ/P-9 barrels (apparently they only do them once a year). WCPI used to make 6" barrels - don't know if George Smith has any left laying around over at EGW or not.

Heck, Bar-Sto might be able to make one longer, even...

One thing to be careful of, or at least, so I'm told. If the comp is *too* efficient with regards to downforceon this style of gun, it may prevent the gun from unlocking, and therefore cycling. The comp has leverage on the cam in the barrel... Apparently, ports through the slide don't affect this quite the same way.

[eerw]

Tanfoglio apparently makes a 6" barrel. Bar-Sto could probably make one, too, when they do their next run of CZ/P-9 barrels (apparently they only do them once a year). WCPI used to make 6" barrels - don't know if George Smith has any left laying around over at EGW or not.

Heck, Bar-Sto might be able to make one longer, even...

One thing to be careful of, or at least, so I'm told. If the comp is *too* efficient with regards to downforceon this style of gun, it may prevent the gun from unlocking, and therefore cycling. The comp has leverage on the cam in the barrel... Apparently, ports through the slide don't affect this quite the same way.

I don't think Geo has any barrel around..I think he could be swayed to make weld-on magwells for the CZ frame...be nice if there was a source of ext thumb safeties...

the barsto site says they usually run barrels mid year..they do look long..

There are some photos of CZ open guns built up on the TS 9mm frame...and Angus had made some mention of CZ-USA custom shop to build up some of the TS framed open guns..but thought that would be a few months off...

[Radical Precision Designs]

Geez-willikers!!!!

Is the CZ Champion the "new dark side" contender for 9mm Open? Hmmmmm.

This definetely could become an affordable platform for beginners, especially if the "factory" made the 170 mags available. Heck, not just for budget constricted beginners, but for everyone.

CZ and Tanfoglios are very popular in Europe. Does a source exists there for ready fit 140 and 170 mags specifically made for the 9mm magazine size? I understand that .38 Super (.45 ACP) sized mags are more common, but those won't fit/work in the smaller frame of the CZ-75 Champion in .40 S&W or 9mm. While it is workable/feasable to weld or have a "smith" weld them for you, it is not really marketable or conducive to propagate their every day use that way.

As for the barrel length (6"+) I'm working on it. Initially I want this "project" to be simple and "budgett-able, so a Hyper-Comp set-up similar to the Glock style (where the barrel is removed from the back) will be used. Later on I will get another slide (if they are obtainable?) and will try my "recessed pivot" barrel/comp design which should eliminate any barrel binding under solid/maximum compensation, and will be removable from the front. But, one step at a time. Ah, yes the wheels are turning!!!!

This definetely has become an interesting thread. I can "hear" the cash registers at CZ going: "ka-chink".

[Flexmoney]

Just a reminder to the connoisseurs...we still have a new shooter looking for a gun to start IPSC with. Don't forget to address his question.

[T8WG]

All this talk of customizing has me wondering would the CZ 75 Tactical Sport be a good gun to start with as well as providing a platform for a high end custom gun in the future. I'm definetly an equipment guy and I see myself with several guns before long so its not that big of issue. I have been considering getting the cz 75 sa in 9mm for an inexpesive gun to practice with as the 9mm ammo is cheap and getting the TS in the near future once I've got some experience as its sounds like the best way to get good is lead down the barrel.