Apex Tactical CZ Trigger Kit - SAO Trigger Compatible?

[TheIceman93]

I'm currently running the Apex Tactical CZ-75 Trigger Enhancement Kit on my SP01 and so far, I'm a fan of how the trigger feels with this upgrade. However, I'm interested in converting the gun to SAO and I'm curious if this kit will be compatible with single action triggers. I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be but I can't find any examples of people running the Apex kit in SAO. The Apex site says nothing about SAO compatibility. I sent them an email about it but I haven't heard back yet. Figured it wouldn't hurt to ask here as well. 

 

Here is the kit in question: https://www.apextactical.com/apex-cz-75-b-hammer-kit-thumb-safe-model

 

If I'm not mistaken, the only difference between SAO and DA/SA is the removal of the disconnector. Is this correct? The Apex kit is pretty much just a hammer and sear upgrade so this should work with both DA/SA and SAO Triggers. 

Edited November 29, 2020 by TheIceman93

[Randy Lee]

Hello,

 

Yes our kit will work as a SAO by removing the disconnector. If your SP-01 is not a Shadow variant, just make sure that whatever trigger you use has the appropriate amount of pre-travel so that the trigger bar can move forward of the FPB lifter.

 

Thanks for running our kit!

 

-Randy

[858]

Don't remove the disconnector, just install a TS/CM trigger and leave everything else alone.

 

https://www.armorycraft.com/shop?Collection=CZ+SAO+Adjustable+Triggers

[Tok36]

1 hour ago, 858 said:

Don't remove the disconnector, just install a TS/CM trigger and leave everything else alone.

 

https://www.armorycraft.com/shop?Collection=CZ+SAO+Adjustable+Triggers

This is like leaving a chain hanging out of the back of a truck, dragging on the road. Is it going to stop the truck from getting to were it is going? No. Do you want to leave the chain there dragging? No.

[858]

6 hours ago, Tok36 said:

This is like leaving a chain hanging out of the back of a truck, dragging on the road. Is it going to stop the truck from getting to were it is going? No. Do you want to leave the chain there dragging? No.

 

No, it's like leaving the correct parts in the gun so the trigger feels good and functions correctly. The disconnector controls pretravel without relying on set screws.

 

 

[858]

 

I wen through this with a SP01. Without the disconnector the pistol relies on the setscrew of the trigger to set pretravel. For whatever reason, the setscrew doesn't do a very good job and I had to add in more pretravel than the SA had prior to the new trigger. When you leave in the disconnector, the SA works the way it did before changing the trigger. This is especially important if you have a model with a firing pin safety. I have both the CZ factory pre B disconnector and a hand fit CGW disconnector.

 

FWIW, the custom CZ builders normally leave the disconnectors in the SAO CZ75s.

 

 

[TheIceman93]

So I'm happily using the Apex kit in SAO in my SP01 but I am curious about removing the firing pin block from my gun to improve the reset. I asked Apex about it but the said they couldn't comment on removing the FPB because they never advise removing safety features. I understand this is for legal purposes and they don't want to get sued for accidental discharges.

 

So I'll ask everyone here. Any potential issues with removing the firing pin block from an Apex CZ? Is the sear and hammer engagement affected at all by the firing pin block? I just don't want to damage anything. 

 

I love the feeling of the Apex SA break but I would like to shorten the reset. Since the Apex kit isn't compatible with extended firing pins, it seems the only way to improve the reset is by eliminating the firing pin block. 

 

Randy, if you're reading this, please consider releasing a kit that is safe to use with extended firing pins so we can run CGW and CZC short reset kits with your sear and hammer. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by TheIceman93

[Randy Lee]

3 hours ago, TheIceman93 said:

So I'm happily using the Apex kit in SAO in my SP01 but I am curious about removing the firing pin block from my gun to improve the reset. I asked Apex about it but the said they couldn't comment on removing the FPB because they never advise removing safety features. I understand this is for legal purposes and they don't want to get sued for accidental discharges.

 

So I'll ask everyone here. Any potential issues with removing the firing pin block from an Apex CZ? Is the sear and hammer engagement affected at all by the firing pin block? I just don't want to damage anything. 

 

I love the feeling of the Apex SA break but I would like to shorten the reset. Since the Apex kit isn't compatible with extended firing pins, it seems the only way to improve the reset is by eliminating the firing pin block. 

 

Randy, if you're reading this, please consider releasing a kit that is safe to use with extended firing pins so we can run CGW and CZC short reset kits with your sear and hammer. 

Hi TheIceman,

 

We found that the liability for us is way too high to use or recommend an extended firing pin. In our tests, we have been able to replicate discharges of the gun dropped from 2 feet on a Shadow 2 due to inertia. This is with the hammer in all three positions  - hammer down, safety notch and fully cocked. I only use the Shadow 2 as a reference because it has no FPB system like the B series has. Any Shadow or B series pistol where the FPB system is removed and an extended pin is installed can run the risk of this happening.

I also know of one individual who had an ND when he eased the hammer to the half cock position and used the trigger to drop the hammer the rest of the way down while making ready. This was with CCI Lawman ammunition, which isn't known to have overly sensitive primers.

You might be able to run Cajun or CZC short reset kits with our hammer and sear if you are using their FPB lifters and keeping the FPB safety system intact. The FPB lifter geometry made by both companies most likely will reduce the reset but maintain the safety function.

 

I do know of customers who have removed the FPB systems from their SP-01s in order to achieve the shortest reset and run their guns in competition. We as a manufacturer simply cannot recommend deactivating any factory safety devices. Hope this helps.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Randy Lee

[TheIceman93]

6 hours ago, Randy Lee said:

You might be able to run Cajun or CZC short reset kits with our hammer and sear if you are using their FPB lifters and keeping the FPB safety system intact. The FPB lifter geometry made by both companies most likely will reduce the reset but maintain the safety function.

 

Thank you for the reply Randy. I appreciate that you want to keep your customers as safe as possible and home smithing does have certain risks that should be mitigated if possible. 

 

I would very much like to run the Cajun SRS1 kit with your hammer and sear. https://cajungunworks.com/product/srs-1-short-reset-system/

I'm currently running my SP01 in SAO but I'm thinking of going back to DA/SA. 

 

The SRS1 does utilize an extended firing pin but it uses a short lifter arm to maintain the FPB safety feature. Would you say that it is ok to use an extended firing pin kit like this with your hammer and sear since the FPB is kept in place? It seems that most of your concerns are with ND's on CZ Shadow models that don't have FPB's or regular 75's with the FPB removed. 

 

The SA break on your Apex kit is the best I've felt and I've shot CZ's with most of the high end trigger systems. The only think holding it back is the long SA reset and I'd like to fix that if possible without removing the PPB. 

[Randy Lee]

9 hours ago, TheIceman93 said:

 

Thank you for the reply Randy. I appreciate that you want to keep your customers as safe as possible and home smithing does have certain risks that should be mitigated if possible. 

 

I would very much like to run the Cajun SRS1 kit with your hammer and sear. https://cajungunworks.com/product/srs-1-short-reset-system/

I'm currently running my SP01 in SAO but I'm thinking of going back to DA/SA. 

 

The SRS1 does utilize an extended firing pin but it uses a short lifter arm to maintain the FPB safety feature. Would you say that it is ok to use an extended firing pin kit like this with your hammer and sear since the FPB is kept in place? It seems that most of your concerns are with ND's on CZ Shadow models that don't have FPB's or regular 75's with the FPB removed. 

 

The SA break on your Apex kit is the best I've felt and I've shot CZ's with most of the high end trigger systems. The only think holding it back is the long SA reset and I'd like to fix that if possible without removing the PPB. 

Thanks for your appreciation of our hammer/sear in the set. We will be releasing a kit with a new hammer that has the same feel but lighter SA release weight since we have had so many requests. That should be available sometime in March.

 

While I haven't tested our hammer and sear kit with the Cajun parts, if the FPB prevents the firing pin from protruding past the breechface when pressing on the back of the firing pin (have to always add the unloaded firearm part here) it should be safe. But again, the caveat is that we only drop test with our parts and not other aftermarket products.

 

I don't know if I have mentioned it here, but before we release any trigger kit it has to pass our drop test which stringent. We drop from 6 feet onto concrete in 27 different orientations.  

 

If you do try the Cajun parts, please let me know how it turns out. There isn't anything that stands out in my mind that says it wouldn't work.

[TheIceman93]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:00 AM, Randy Lee said:

Thanks for your appreciation of our hammer/sear in the set. We will be releasing a kit with a new hammer that has the same feel but lighter SA release weight since we have had so many requests. That should be available sometime in March.

 

Thats great to hear Randy. Will the new hammer be compatible with the sear from your original kit? If so, will it be available to purchase separately? 

[Randy Lee]

It will be compatible with our sear. We will probably only sell the hammer to customers who call in. Once I have them back from the finishers, I can let you know that they are available.

[TheIceman93]

On 12/28/2020 at 4:34 PM, Randy Lee said:

It will be compatible with our sear. We will probably only sell the hammer to customers who call in. Once I have them back from the finishers, I can let you know that they are available.

 

Thank you for keeping the sears the same and offering the hammer separately so customers already running your kit don't have to buy the same part twice. Greatly appreciated. 

 

Randy, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the CZ75 trigger in general, especially the topic of da/sa take-up and single action reset. It seems that super short take-up and resets are all the rage these days. It seems that your kit primarily focuses on double action smoothness and the wall before the break. Do you feel that the take-up and reset with your kit are fine as is? Could we possibly see additional Apex parts in the future to fine tune these areas? 

 

I'm not totally sold on the benefits of a super short take-up and reset since many competition shooters are lifting their finger off the trigger between shots in rapid fire anyways. Just curious to hear your thoughts. 

[Randy Lee]

I can only speak to my preferences, as I am sure if you ask 100 other owners they will give you 100 different opinions. So here goes...

 

The CZ trigger system has many of the characteristics that I find desirable in a TDA pistol. Of all the pistols I own that are TDA, my CZs have the smoothest, lightest and most linear pull characteristics for the first DA shot. Since I come from the land of Smith revolvers, I am used to the DA and I guess I find it strangely familiar.

 

In competition, I can get aggressive with the DA on my draw stroke whereas I am usually more hesitant to do so with my 24 oz trigger pulls on my 2011s. 

 

There is always an arms race for a gun with lighter/shorter faster resetting triggers. I think that is in part why Cajun and CZC are so popular (the quality of their parts is also part of their popularity). But for me, I see so many people get into trouble because they don't understand the performance or safety envelopes designed into the gun and then set the gun up so that it is running on the edge of safe operation. I have seen over travel stops/take up screws set so short that bump fires occur regularly. I have also seen people tweak on the sear face and hammer hooks to the point they burst fire. People like to tinker and like the 1911 fans, the CZ opens up the opportunity to tweak the gun to your liking-for better or worse.

 

If you are speaking specifically about setting up the gun for competition, then the Shadow/Pre-B sear and disconnectors have the advantage over the B series. The trigger bar will always have to travel farther forward in order to pick up the FPB lifter than the sear reset point and that can make for longer split times because of the increased take up.

 

On my current Shadow 2 and AO-1 I use our hammer and sear with the AO-1 using one of our prototype competition hammers. I set my over travel distance at about .020 so that the sear clears the drop safety ledge on the hammer and reduces the chances of bump firing the gun (the wall before the break also helps with this). I am using the factory disconnectors and I don't think there would be any advantage for me to run super short take up. I suspect that a good majority of shooters fall into my category too.

 

When I ran my SP-01 in Production, I was lucky enough to be friends with the head of product development at CZ-USA who sent me a Shadow slide. Back then CZC was the only game in town, so I ordered a pre-B sear, one of their disconnectors (I prefer the CZC disconnector because it uses the tandem ears like the factory, so the hammer tends to track more linearly along the centerline of the frame) and their hammer. This set up eliminated the FPB system and since the Shadow SP-01 was on the USPSA Production approved list I was golden.

 

The only problem was that due to the abundant leverage of the pivoting trigger system, my pull weight was about 1.25 lbs on the SA. The more trigger work I did on customer guns, the more I found that in tuning the DA to my liking, it was impossible to get a SA pull weight above 1.75 lbs. That's why I designed the hammer and sear engagements on our current kit. With all the tuning done, I was able to get a very stable AND drop safe 3 lb pull.

 

 

 

 

 

[TheIceman93]

@Randy Lee

 

Thank you for the very detailed response. Unfortunately, us California serfs are banned from enjoying the benefits of the Shadow 1 and 2 trigger. That darn firing pin block in the B prevents us from getting a competition grade trigger. Sure, you could remove it but I'm pretty sure that is illegal in Production class. 

 

Do you have any recommendations for additional mods for 75B series FPB equipped pistols beyond your kit? 

 

What do you anticipate the SA pull weight will be for the upcoming competition hammer? 

[MoRivera]

On 12/17/2020 at 8:48 PM, Randy Lee said:

Hi TheIceman,

 

We found that the liability for us is way too high to use or recommend an extended firing pin. In our tests, we have been able to replicate discharges of the gun dropped from 2 feet on a Shadow 2 due to inertia. This is with the hammer in all three positions  - hammer down, safety notch and fully cocked. I only use the Shadow 2 as a reference because it has no FPB system like the B series has. Any Shadow or B series pistol where the FPB system is removed and an extended pin is installed can run the risk of this happening.

I also know of one individual who had an ND when he eased the hammer to the half cock position and used the trigger to drop the hammer the rest of the way down while making ready. This was with CCI Lawman ammunition, which isn't known to have overly sensitive primers.

You might be able to run Cajun or CZC short reset kits with our hammer and sear if you are using their FPB lifters and keeping the FPB safety system intact. The FPB lifter geometry made by both companies most likely will reduce the reset but maintain the safety function.

 

I do know of customers who have removed the FPB systems from their SP-01s in order to achieve the shortest reset and run their guns in competition. We as a manufacturer simply cannot recommend deactivating any factory safety devices. Hope this helps.

Hi Randy...

 

So you're saying that if a Shadow/Shadow 2 is dropped, an extended firing pin can ignite a chambered round from inertia alone, regardless of whether the hammer is lowered or cocked?

[Randy Lee]

On 1/4/2021 at 9:09 AM, MoRivera said:

Hi Randy...

 

So you're saying that if a Shadow/Shadow 2 is dropped, an extended firing pin can ignite a chambered round from inertia alone, regardless of whether the hammer is lowered or cocked?

That is correct. Couple it with a reduced power or cut firing pin spring and your chances go up even further.

[Randy Lee]

On 12/30/2020 at 5:41 PM, TheIceman93 said:

@Randy Lee

 

Thank you for the very detailed response. Unfortunately, us California serfs are banned from enjoying the benefits of the Shadow 1 and 2 trigger. That darn firing pin block in the B prevents us from getting a competition grade trigger. Sure, you could remove it but I'm pretty sure that is illegal in Production class. 

 

Do you have any recommendations for additional mods for 75B series FPB equipped pistols beyond your kit? 

 

What do you anticipate the SA pull weight will be for the upcoming competition hammer? 

In the Shadow 2, the SA pull weight using a TriggerScan machine measured 2.75 lbs. If a lighter trigger return spring is used my guess is that it would be probably hover around 2.25-2.5 lbs. In the 75 B the factory FPB spring adds resistance and ups the pull weight.

Every so often a Shadow SP-01 slide shows up for sale. You can check with CZC or Cajun as they may have sources. One customer in CA I know of was able to get one and competes with it.

[MoRivera]

7 hours ago, Randy Lee said:

That is correct. Couple it with a reduced power or cut firing pin spring and your chances go up even further.

Wow.....so based on this, whether the gun starts with hammer fully down, at half cock or cocked n' locked, it's just as likely to fire from a drop like in that tragic USPSA mishap.    Changes the outlook on using them in Shadows if true.  My only question...and not insinuating anything....is whether this was determined through testing by those who make them like CGW.

[858]

7 hours ago, MoRivera said:

Wow.....so based on this, whether the gun starts with hammer fully down, at half cock or cocked n' locked, it's just as likely to fire from a drop like in that tragic USPSA mishap.    Changes the outlook on using them in Shadows if true.  My only question...and not insinuating anything....is whether this was determined through testing by those who make them like CGW.

 

Don't tell anyone, it is a well guarded secret...CZ introduced models with firing pin safeties. There isn't a single Shadow or Shadow 2 that is drop safe, extended firing pin or otherwise.

[MoRivera]

2 hours ago, 858 said:

 

Don't tell anyone, it is a well guarded secret...CZ introduced models with firing pin safeties. There isn't a single Shadow or Shadow 2 that is drop safe, extended firing pin or otherwise.

Don't tell anyone this either, but there are still 1911's out there in common use and availability that don't have one.

[Randy Lee]

On 1/8/2021 at 7:51 AM, 858 said:

 

Don't tell anyone, it is a well guarded secret...CZ introduced models with firing pin safeties. There isn't a single Shadow or Shadow 2 that is drop safe, extended firing pin or otherwise.

There are many firearms that do not have FPB safety systems that fall into this category. That said, our own testing showed that the S2 with factory fp and spring were drop safe above 4 feet on concrete in the worst case orientation (muzzle down).   From a competition perspective, average height of a holstered pistol is less than slightly less than 3 feet (muzzle). All I am saying is that you shift the probability range by using extended firing pins and reduced power f/p springs.