Single pass reloading on a 650....

[Chills1994]

First off, you have to understand that I had a zip lock bag of LC19 brass (5.56 or .223 brass) that was twice fired.  That’s important to know because the primer crimps were already taken care of.

 

I took about 5 to 10 pieces of that brass and measured them for length.  They were all under 1.76”. 
 

None of this brass had been tumbled yet.

 

I poured them out onto an aluminum cookie sheet.  Then I sprayed them with a homemade version of the Dillon lanolin lube.  
 

Then I started setting up the toolhead.  To make a long story short, through some trial and error, that toolhead ended up like this:

 

1.  Universal decapper

2.  Empty/nothing

3.  Redding S die with a 0.245 neck bushing

4.  Dillon powder measure with 2 old school return springs

5.  Redding micrometer adjustable bullet seating die

 

Then I gingerly shook the cookie sheet with brass and sprayed them again with the lanolin lube.

 

I only had so many pieces of twice fired LC19 brass.  In all, I made 63 complete, reloaded rounds.  I poured some 91% rubbing alcohol on a terry cloth towel and dumped the loaded rounds onto that.  I grabbed the four corners of the towel and gave ‘em a good shaking.  That got rid of the lube.

 

All 63 rounds fit the case gauge just fine. (some brass was measured for length just after resizing and were under 1.76” .)

 

They all measured at about 2.25” for OAL.

 

I weighed each one and they came in around 186 grains.  (69gr SMK + 22.0grn of H3355 + a WSR primer)

 

I will be back in a couple of days with a range report.

 

If you don’t need super clean brass with clean primer pockets....

 

AND

 

you don’t care that some brass might measure 1.745” and others might be 1.750” and others still might be 1.755” ...

 

AND

 

your brass doesn’t have any primer crimps,

 

then single pass reloading might be for you.

 

Maybe?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chills1994]

I made it to the range yesterday to shoot some groups.

 

I am calling this Single Pass Rifle Reloads(ing).  Or SPaRR for short.  This particular load consisted of LC19 brass, WSR primer, 22.0gn of H335, and a 69 grain HPBT SMK.

 

all groups were at 100 yards.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

Another 5 shot group:
 

(which reminds me I should have stapled the targets on the cardboard instead of the plywood.  The bullet holes look a lot cleaner when cardboard is the backer)

 

 

[Chills1994]

10 shot group, also at 100 yards:

 

 

[Chills1994]

For the next time out, I will have to load up some Hornady 55 grain FMJ’s .

 

if this is just going to be whammo blammo, there is no sense  in wasting the good ($$$) bullets on them.

 

I also have some Montana Gold 55 grain FMJ’s that I bought as a case years ago.  They group just slightly better than XM855 and XM193 ammo.  I just checked the MG website.  They aren’t even listing .224 caliber bullets..  they probably haven’t for years.

 

I suspect they were actually Armscor bullets.

 

Checking out Graf’s website, if they had any of the Armscor .224 bullets in stock, they would be running about 8 cents each.  Whereas, the 69gr HPBT SMK is running 24 cents each, retail, and the 77gr HPBT SMK is running 28 cents each, retail.  
 

 

[Chills1994]

Oh...yeah... one more thing.  I almost forgot.

 

That LC19 brass that I shot yesterday... that was its 3rd firing (thrice fired???)...

 

I measured 10 of those fired cases (so the next time I run them through in a single pass on the 650, I will make it a point to measure some of them for case length AFTER being re-sized in the Redding S die w/ neck bushing and make sure they fit the case gauge) :

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Chills1994

[RGA]

Of course you can get away with this as long as your cases are under max length. At some point they will become too long so in that case you could either trim them or toss them.

 

The precision shooter wants consistency however, and that also means all case necks should be the same length. Differences in case neck length result in differences in pull/push out force needed to push the bullet out of the case neck. This is not what precision shooters are looking for.

 

Having said that, most of us mediocre shooters will not notice the difference, and certainly not at short range.

 

My fodder loads I do not trim as long as they are under max case length. But for my match loads I always make sure the case lengths are uniform.

[stick]

First off I'm glad it worked out for you.  I don't believe in single pass loading.  I have a dedicated tool head with a full length sizing die and a Dillon 1500.  It only take a few minutes to size and trim brass.  I want the cases as uniform as possible.

[Chills1994]

4 hours ago, RGA said:

(snip)....
 

Differences in case neck length result in differences in pull/push out force needed to push the bullet out of the case neck. This is not what precision shooters are looking for.....(/snip)

Thank you for your reply!

 

I think the term you are looking for is “neck tension".

 

or possibly “brisance".

 

Just within the past two weeks, for my 9mm toolhead on my 650:

 

1.  Traditional resizing die either by Dillon or RCBS (with the decapping rod removed)

 

2.  EGW/Lee Undersize die

 

3.  Dillon Powder Measure with the two old school return springs

 

4.  Redding micrometer adjustable bullet seating die

 

5.  Lee FCD

 

soooo... moving the Dillon PM out of the #2 station where it normally goes and has the failsafe rod attached to it was something very new to me.  I had never heard or read of it being done before.

 

In turn, moving the PM to the #4 station on .the 223 load toolhead was also “uncharted waters” for me.

 

Now that I have proved that out, that the ammo can be made safely, consistently, reliably, and accurately,  I think I have some gadgets in mind to help streamline the process or make it even more convenient.  There will be more tinkering and trial and error involved.

 

I was really wondering if one of you all would reply with something like, “YOU MOVED YOUR POWDER MEASURE OUT OF STATION NUMBER TWO!?  YOU’RE. AN IDIOT!"

 

 

[George16]

15 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Oh...yeah... one more thing.  I almost forgot.

 

That LC19 brass that I shot yesterday... that was its 3rd firing (thrice fired???)...

 

I measured 10 of those fired cases (so the next time I run them through in a single pass on the 650, I will make it a point to measure some of them for case length AFTER being re-sized in the Redding S die w/ neck bushing and make sure they fit the case gauge) :

 

 

 

 

This is not surprising if you fired these cases on the same rifle over and over again. Try firing those in a different rifle and you’ll see the difference because of the different chamber sizes between the two rifles.
 

The expansion will be minimal if any, every time you fire those cases in the same rifle. There’s really no need to size these cases since they’re fired in the same rifle.
 

 

[Chills1994]

1 hour ago, stick said:

First off I'm glad it worked out for you.  I don't believe in single pass loading.  I have a dedicated tool head with a full length sizing die and a Dillon 1500.  It only take a few minutes to size and trim brass.  I want the cases as uniform as possible.

Thank you for the reply.

 

I also have a Dillon RT1500 trimmer.

 

It is currently set up on a prep toolhead for .223 .

 

I would normally wet tumble brass with SS pins.

 

So in total, that brass was making three trips through my 650

 

The very first toolhead was just one die in the entire toolhead.  It was a universal decapper in station #1 .EDIT:  the Swage It tool is installed to knock out the primer crimps.

 

I should have worn my FitBit watch to see how fast my heartbeat was getting up to.  Despite my best efforts, pumping that 650’s handle aerobically, I could never out run the casefeeder.

 

so once all the primers were out, I would wet tumble for 90 minutes using my FART.  Then there is the rinsing and the separating of the pins from the brass.  Then there is the drying of the brass.
 

Then for the second trip through the 650, I would lube the brass inside a zip lock bag using the “shake and bake” method.  Next, I would install the prep toolhead in the 650.  That has an RCBS small base full length resizing die in station #1.  That acts like a pre-re-sizer. Stations #2 and #3 are empty.  The Dillon .223 trim die and RT1500 trimmer are in at station #4.  Station #5 is empty.

 

Then I would wet tumble again to get all the lube off.

 

The actual load toolhead has a Lyman M die at the #1 slot.  Station #2 is filled with the Dillon Powder Measure.  Station #3 is empty. (I have a mirror positioned just so that it shows the powder in the case has it comes up through the #3 hole) A Redding micrometer adjustable bullet seating die in the #4 spot.  The #5 station has a Lee FCD
 

Almost done....

 

Then there is the case gauging and checking the OAL’s.

 

And sometimes weighing the loaded rounds.

 

And sometimes spinning the rounds in a concentricity (runout) gauge.

 

Then there is the boxing up of ammo.

 

Then putting a sharpie marker stripe across the headstamps.  

 

And then labeling the boxes.

 

To me, that is a lot of rigamarole... a lot of steps...a lot of process to go through in order to just shoot.

 

Just as a side note... I will never skimp on the case gauging part.  To a degree getting eyes on and fingers on the loaded rounds is a good thing.  That .223 round produces upwards of 55,O00 psi + . It’s just a few inches from my face and eyes... inside a gun that  costs right around $1,000 (or more) with an optic that costs about the same riding on it right next to the chamber.

 

my logic being if I am case gauging all the rifle rounds anyway,  if a round has a case that is too long, the case gauge will catch it....if you’re looking for just whammo blammo in the accuracy department, then give Single Pass Rifle Reliading (SPaRR... yes, like the spar in a wing) a try.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

33 minutes ago, George16 said:

This is not surprising if you fired these cases on the same rifle over and over again. Try firing those in a different rifle and you’ll see the difference because of the different chamber sizes between the two rifles.
 

The expansion will be minimal if any, every time you fire those cases in the same rifle. There’s really no need to size these cases since they’re fired in the same rifle.
 

 

Let’s call this thread “proof of concept”...

 

Proof that I can move the Dillon PM to the #4 slot and still get consistent charges thrown (without the failsafe rod).

 

Proof that using a progressive press to reload bottle necked rifle cases does NOT require two passes through the press.

 

And all this effort is me leading up to the idea of “What if there was a gadget or doodad that could be bolted onto a 650 that kept brass longer than 1.760” from getting into the shellplate?"

 

EDIT:  if the brass is fired from any rifle regardless of its chamber specs, longer than 1.760” is still longer than 1.760", and this gadget will keep it from getting into/onto a 650’s shellplate.

 

EDIT #2 :  I think you meant to write that “there is no need to trim since those cases were fired from the same rifle”.  The brass has still “ballooned up” to the point where in an UNresized state they are about a quarter inch from sitting flush in a case gauge.
 

I am thinking that brass originally started out as factory XM855 or XM193.  It might have been shot through one of my 6920s (to sight in ACOGs or Aimpoints).  And to be brutally honest, after the first firing and the first resizing, I am thinking I trimmed them with my Dillon RT 1500... but dang it if I can’t remember if I set it up for 1.750” or 1.740” .

 

EDIT #3 :  if you have ever read the directions for using an RCBS X resizing die, it says to trim to 1.740". When its mandrel is screwed down for subsequent resizings, the mandrel is machined  in such a way that it keeps the brass from growing in length.  So you should never have to trim that brass either.  

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Chills1994

[George16]

Just now, Chills1994 said:

Let’s call this thread “proof of concept”...

 

Proof that I can move the Dillon PM to the #4 slot and still get consistent charges thrown (without the failsafe rod).

 

Proof that using a progressive press to reload bottle necked rifle cases does NOT require two passes through the press.

 

And all this effort is me leading up to the idea of “What if there was a gadget or doodad that could be bolted onto a 650 that kept brass longer than 1.760” from getting into the shellplate?"

 

 

I’m with you. Before getting my 1100, all my .223 ammo were reloaded in my 650. I separate the ammo/brass from each rifle I have so I don’t have to resize them. 
 

The only ones I resized are the Lake City brass I get from the police range. They’re resized initially and after that, separated from each rifle I have so I don’t need to resize them again.

[Chills1994]

33 minutes ago, George16 said:

I’m with you. Before getting my 1100, all my .223 ammo were reloaded in my 650. I separate the ammo/brass from each rifle I have so I don’t have to resize them. 
 

The only ones I resized are the Lake City brass I get from the police range. They’re resized initially and after that, separated from each rifle I have so I don’t need to resize them again.

I don’t have any centerfire bolt action rifles.

 

For .223, it is just the 3 AR15’s.., the one FrankenAR with the 20 inch barrel and the Leupold  mildot scope set to 18 power.  The other two are both 6920’s, and both are wearing ACOGS.  
 

I have a hard enough time keeping the LC brass separated by year groups.

 

If I did have a good enough bolt action, then I would probably just feed it Lapua brass cased reloads.

 

On Monday, I will head to the machinist shop and see about getting some doodads or gadgets milled up.

 

Thanks again for the reply.

[RGA]

1 hour ago, Chills1994 said:

Thank you for your reply!

 

I think the term you are looking for is “neck tension".

 

You are welcome!

 

I consider the term neck tension a variable indicating the constriction of the neck only. I deliberately do not use the term for what I'm trying to say because that is a product of the neck tension AND the length over which it is applied to the full diameter of the projectile.

 

 

[stick]

1 hour ago, Chills1994 said:

Thank you for the reply.

 

I also have a Dillon RT1500 trimmer.

 

It is currently set up on a prep toolhead for .223 .

 

I would normally wet tumble brass with SS pins.

 

So in total, that brass was making three trips through my 650

 

The very first toolhead was just one die in the entire toolhead.  It was a universal decapper in station #1 .EDIT:  the Swage It tool is installed to knock out the primer crimps.

 

I should have worn my FitBit watch to see how fast my heartbeat was getting up to.  Despite my best efforts, pumping that 650’s handle aerobically, I could never out run the casefeeder.

 

so once all the primers were out, I would wet tumble for 90 minutes using my FART.  Then there is the rinsing and the separating of the pins from the brass.  Then there is the drying of the brass.
 

Then for the second trip through the 650, I would lube the brass inside a zip lock bag using the “shake and bake” method.  Next, I would install the prep toolhead in the 650.  That has an RCBS small base full length resizing die in station #1.  That acts like a pre-re-sizer. Stations #2 and #3 are empty.  The Dillon .223 trim die and RT1500 trimmer are in at station #4.  Station #5 is empty.

 

Then I would wet tumble again to get all the lube off.

 

The actual load toolhead has a Lyman M die at the #1 slot.  Station #2 is filled with the Dillon Powder Measure.  Station #3 is empty. (I have a mirror positioned just so that it shows the powder in the case has it comes up through the #3 hole) A Redding micrometer adjustable bullet seating die in the #4 spot.  The #5 station has a Lee FCD
 

Almost done....

 

Then there is the case gauging and checking the OAL’s.

 

And sometimes weighing the loaded rounds.

 

And sometimes spinning the rounds in a concentricity (runout) gauge.

 

Then there is the boxing up of ammo.

 

Then putting a sharpie marker stripe across the headstamps.  

 

And then labeling the boxes.

 

To me, that is a lot of rigamarole... a lot of steps...a lot of process to go through in order to just shoot.

 

Just as a side note... I will never skimp on the case gauging part.  To a degree getting eyes on and fingers on the loaded rounds is a good thing.  That .223 round produces upwards of 55,O00 psi + . It’s just a few inches from my face and eyes... inside a gun that  costs right around $1,000 (or more) with an optic that costs about the same riding on it right next to the chamber.

 

my logic being if I am case gauging all the rifle rounds anyway,  if a round has a case that is too long, the case gauge will catch it....if you’re looking for just whammo blammo in the accuracy department, then give Single Pass Rifle Reliading (SPaRR... yes, like the spar in a wing) a try.

I have almost the same setup with multiple tool heads on my 650.  The beauty of it is...you don't have to do all of it one sitting.  I usually prep 300-400 rounds at a time (either size/clean or load).  I have roughly 2k prepped cases.  That way, when I need some it's not a day long process.

[Chills1994]

33 minutes ago, stick said:

I have almost the same setup with multiple tool heads on my 650.  The beauty of it is...you don't have to do all of it one sitting.  I usually prep 300-400 rounds at a time (either size/clean or load).  I have roughly 2k prepped cases.  That way, when I need some it's not a day long process.

I have a bunch of brass/ammo in various stages.

 

Really, if I could get enough of one Lake City year group together that would be great .  I have got so much stuff, that I bought another Wright Line media cabinet.  The first one I bought, a 6 footer, is pictured down below (it has a tambour door on it like a roll top desk).  
 

A few years ago, a guy was moving and wanted to sell off his ammo cans of XM855 and XM193.  They still had the zip ties or cable ties on them securing the lid to the can.  I bought every one of them.  So I am all set for a while for 4MOA blasting ammo.  
 

EDIT:  I forgot to mention... I bought another 650 last year.  I leave it set up for large primer.  So if I am stuck waiting for .223 brass to dry, I can always crank out .45’s or .308’s.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

The good news is with some additions to the  large case feeder plate, brass longer than 1.76" would not drop down into the 650.

 

The large case feed plate has 6 “gaps" total  between the teeth.  So the bad news is once a too long case was stuck in a gap it blocked the shorter cases from actually being transported to the top of the casefeeder and being dropped into the press :

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

The other issue I was running into was that the large casefeeder plate has gaps that are deep enough that it will let two .223 cases ride up together (I call this twins or twinning.) Sometimes it will drop one case down to the press.  Other times it will drop both cases at the same time.  And then there are other instances of none of the cases dropping at all.

 

 

[Chills1994]

I bought my first 650 in 2008.  I bought my second 650 in 2019.

 

Dillon has at least 2 different casefeeder designs.  The one I got in 2008 has the metal side piece with tab bent to the inside to act like a “case kicker" :

 

 

[Chills1994]

The 2019 case feeder is all plastic and it has its own plastic case kicker that is height and angle adjustable .  In this pic I drilled a third hole and moved it over with hopes of it kicking out the 1.77” long cases...which didn’t work.

 

Back to the drawing board....

 

 

[RGA]

1.77 is over max case length, are you going to trim them or are you planning on loading/shooting them???

 

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and you are trying to set the casefeeder up as a case gauge?

 

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by RGA

[Chills1994]

On 8/29/2020 at 1:04 AM, RGA said:

1.77 is over max case length, are you going to trim them or are you planning on loading/shooting them???

 

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and you are trying to set the casefeeder up as a case gauge?

 

 

Basically, I am or was attempting to turn the case feeder into a “filter” or “screen” such that it picked out the .223 cases longer than 1.76” , and the cases that are 1.76” or shorter get dropped into the 650.

 

That is their before resized length.

 

So I am trying to minimize or not create any growth in length when sizing the cases by using a Redding S die with a neck bushing versus using a traditional sizing die with an expander ball.

 

I made another batch of ammo the other night using PMC once fired brass.  It didn’t have any crimped in primers.  All that brass started out under 1.76.  And the few I pulled out of the shellplate AFTER sizing but BEFORE charging with powder were still under 1.76” .

 

They all passed the case gauge too.

[RGA]

That's what I thought you were trying to do with the casefeeder. That's very unconventional (and not very precize) but if you want to do that, fine.

 

I also have Redding S-dies, are you using the full length version or are you neck sizing only? And fwiw, the expanderball does not cause the cases too lengthen during the sizing operation.  (If you have to pull the expanderball so hard through the caseneck that it makes your case longer (pulls the shoulder out of shape) than something else is wrong.)

 

So basically you are trying to gauge the fired cases to filter out over max length ones and then size them (neck or FL?) in a way they will not grow?

 

I minimize caselength grow by tuning my sizing to the chamber of my .223 rifles. Meaning I full length size 0.002/3 inch under fired case specs. If I trim the cases after the first time sizing then they will stay under max. caselength untill I toss them (after about 5 firings). They hardly grow.

Edited August 31, 2020 by RGA

[Chills1994]

Full length sizing because the cases have balloon’ed up with the first firing and won’t fit the case gauge.

 

The neck bushing is there to get the neck tension correct.

 

The other bonus of the neck bushing is that supposedly a normal traditional sizing die with an expander ball can cause concentricity issues.  Supposedly.

 

Ultimately, what I am trying to avoid is two trips through the press with another wet tumbling step between the two passes to get rid of the case lube.   The first being the prep (the resizing and trimming toolhead) .  The second, as you know, is the load toolhead (Lyman M die,  Dillon Powder Measure, Redding Micrometer Seating Die, and possibly a Lee Factory Crimp Die).

 

If the brass is short enough and stays short enough, then it only needs the single pass through the press.

 

The wooden blocks attached to the casefeed plate are threaded.  Those adjustment screws are a 1/4” X 20 threads to the inch.  One full turn of the screw is  one  twentieth of an inch which is 0.05” .  If I switch over to allen head screws, a “flat” is a sixth of a turn or 0.0083333 of    an inch.

 

If I can get the bugs worked out with the casefeeder, then ideally I would like to have a machinist mill up a piece of stainless steel rod into something like a .223 case but make it say 1.761” long .  This would act like a set up gauge to get those adjustment screws dialed in just right.

 

If I can’t get the bugs worked out with the casefeeder, I have a plan B in mind.

 

Plan C is just using a slotted Sheridan case gauge.  I am case gauging all my bottle necked rifle rounds anyway.  At least with a slotted Sheridan gauge, I can see where or what is causing the round to not sit flush with the gauge.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Chills1994