Major/minor Q's

[ECM242]

Hi,

A bud and I are new to IPSC. We have shot a local match for about three months now. We both shoot production with G17's in 9mm.

It seems even if we outshoot a guy with a 40 in limited class, he still gets a higher score.

Could someone explain the major/minor thing to me a bit?

I would also like if a guy with 45 gets same hits as a guy with a 40 does he get the same score or higher?

Thanks for your time.

[AZ38super]

You can still beat the other guy shooting minor you just need better hits, trust me I've done it.

Scoring goes like this:

Zone Major Minor

A 5 5

B 4 3

C 4 3

D 2 1

What it comes down to is you lose an extra point on non A zone shots over a guy shooting major.

A person shooting a major power factor load in 40 cal score the same as a major power factor load in 45 cal and so on.

Myself my hot 9mm loads were no easier to shoot than guys shooting just over major 40 cal loads but they got the benefit of being major and I didn't.

Most production shooters are hsooting minor so just take time to learn to shoot more A's and have fun.

[George]

It has to do with power factor and rewarding greater recoil ammo with greater points on non-centered hits.

Major PF is determined soley by bullet weight in grains x velocity in fps. When this combination is above 125,000, the PF is minor and is just legal to compete. If the bullet weight and velocity combination is above 165,000 then the ammo is major PF in that gun. The 9mm cartridge in commercial loadings will not make 165,000 and it is therefore relegated to minor scoring values.

Here is where you are losing ground to the folks shooting .40 and .45 at major PF. Everytime you get less than two A hits on a target you are dropping points compared to the major PF shooter because even though the point values for A's are the same, B,C and D hits score less for minor PF shooters on the assumption that the lower PF is less effective in non-center of mass shot placement. Our sport ostensibly has practical underpinnings and the goal here is to reward a more powerful cartridge choice with more points when the shot placement is less effective. The additional recoil that has to be managed is a factor to consider too in awarding extra points.

The road to major PF for the 9mm cartridge is closed in Limited and L10 divisions as there is a .40 caliber minimum in place to score as major. This has to do with pressure concerns and the lack of a SAAMI safe and widely available commercial loading that makes major in 9x19.

The .45's get no additional advantage. It is all based on bullet weight x velocity. A .45, or .40 that doesn't have the velocity to make major will also score minor. The folks who shoot .40 in Production division download the velocity to minor PF to reduce recoil as there is no major PF scoring in Production division.

If you can shoot all A's as quickly as the 40's and .45's can shoot without getting all A's then you will begin to actually kick some butt. To compete shooting minor PF you have to be considerably faster and just as accurate, or just as fast and a lot more accurate to keep up with major shooters.

I hope this helps make the reason understandable.

Edited October 5, 2005 by George

[mcoliver]

EC, if you're shooting minor, your scoring goes like this:

A = 5

B/C = 3

D = 1

For major:

A = 5

B/C = 4

D = 2

In Production Division, all are scored Minor. But in other Divisions, if you shoot minor, you're penalized more for shots that don't make the A-zone.

Divisions that allow major scoring limits the bullet diameter you can use to .40 caliber. Any less, you're scored minor, even if your ammo chronos equal to or over the major PF floor.

HTH.

Edit: Dang! George and AZ has faster typing speeds than me.

Edited October 5, 2005 by mcoliver

[vluc]

While the points part is important, so is time. You did not mention that...you said you outshot him...I take that to mean points only.

You can "win" both ways...shoot more points a tad slower than him, or shoot less points a good bit faster than him. Then again, you can shoot more points a good bit faster than him and the problem is solved!

[SRT Driver]

On a 5 hf stage, you need to be .4 faster for every charlie you shoot in Production.

The guy shooting major has to be .2 faster for each charlie.

These are the break even numbers.

[alellis]

Are there any top class shooters who shoot minor pf.

In Brians book and other sources I have read that the first thing to learn is accuracy and then speed it up.

IIRC Brian says you must shoot 2 As

If this is the case then minor pf should do fine.

al

[dfwmiket]

If I'm not mistaken, Julie shot minor power factor and won high lady Limited this year at the Nats...... someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[TBF]

I have just decided recently to try a 9 MM minor Glock 17 for Limited.

I have faith that this , like most of my great ideas , has some deep fundamental flaw which will only become evident after I've already committed myself to it.....

A's score the same no matter what you shoot.

Travis F.

[Flexmoney]

That would be the 2005 Limited 10 Nationals, where she came in 44th overall shooting minor. Only one other shooter above her shot minor, John Flentz at 31st place.

I think Matt Burkett shot minor at the Nationals a few years back. IIRC, he managed 6th. I thought that was impressive, but he indicated that he would not do so again. There are quite a few targets and presentations that don't give much of the Alpha box to shoot at.

I think Erik Lund chrono'ed minor at the 2004 Nationals and managed to pull together a 19th place finish (in a crowded field of Limited shooter talent).

[alellis]

A's score the same no matter what you shoot.

Travis F.

That is the point I was making.

But I guess if the top shooters are not good enough to win with minor I definately am not.

al

[RayKu]

While shooting minor may not be the best approach to winning at the hightest levels, it is not a bad place to start in developing skills. Shooting minor will definitely prevent you from shooting too fast and being sloppy, and once you have made it a habit to shoot A's, it should stay with you when you transition to major PF.

In my limited experience, I have tried to shoot production (minor) and limited (major), and the habits I have developed in production have made me a better limited shooter. I will actually be trying production and open (minor) next season to continue this trend.

[George]

I started shooting minor against others shooting major, I got fast and accurate and made B. I switched to .38 super major and immediately got sloppy until I realized I had a mental problem with knowing I was getting away with less punishment from the C's and D's.

Moral here. Treat any points loss as your enemy!

[ArnisAndyz]

Dang! George and AZ has faster typing speeds than me.

Yes...but your typing was very accurate.