vluc Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Quote: from 3quartertime on 9:05 pm on Sep. 26, 2002 I had the benifit of some increadible advise. Find someone to explain hit factors on each stage before you shoot. Many times at a big match there is negative benifit in actually finishing the COF. If the array is hard at your skill level you need to decide how many misses you are willing to accept before moving on. This is a time AND accuracy event. Sometimes leaving a few will be smarter, it's all in the math!!! Now this was an interesting comment that I would like to follow up on with the more experienced shooters. When does this come into play? I ask not just because 3qtr brought it up, but because I was actually thinking of doing something like this when i saw the stages at the Tri-State. Having heard so many horror stories of the Texas Star, i began to wonder what the effect would be if I did not finish it...decide after a point to stop shooting and move on. Fortunately when I ran it, it was nowhere near the issue I thought and did quite well on that stage. So...how does one make that decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 vluc, I can't explain the theory but I can help get it started with an example from the Tri-state. On the stage 'Out to dry' there was a dropping paper which hid behind a no shoot pretty quick. It was fairly close but because of the soft cover it wasn't easy to see. As my squad looked at the stage they decided that because there would be no FTE for not shooting and the chance of hitting the no shoot was pretty good it might be smarter to just skip it and try to get a faster time. When the stage RO came up and heard us talking about it he said several had taken just that approach. He said in fact most of the no shoots penalties were coming from 'C' and 'D' class shooters. Some on my squad shot quick and hit it, I decided to skip it. Hope my example wasn't too basic for your question. You may have realized this benifit on the stage on your own. I would have never thought of it with out listening to the good shooters on my squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 There was a perfect example at WSXIII, "Band of Brothers." Three poppers, one of which activated a sequential target activator. At ten yards, the three targets each flipped up and disappeared in turn. Paper time total, 2.5 seconds. Actual cardboard exposed, .5 second each. So, you could shoot three poppers and ignore the paper, or you could go for the paper points and hope you got enough hits to warrant the extra time expenditure. The top shooters went for the points and got them. But, could you get at least 3 "A" hit equivalents on three targets for the extra time? If not, then don't spend the time. The course designer was miffed, because he had set it up with the paper at 6 yards, where they could not be ignored. At 10, it was cause for calculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Now a disappearing target is one thing. I also did not choose to engage the DT as there would be no penalty for not doing so. Got that one figured! I guess I took your post to address something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 vluc it depends on how the stage factors out. If it's a 5 hit factor you've got 3 seconds to shoot each plate (5 points for the A and 10 points for the Miss). If you are taking more time than that, it isn't worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Yea thats what I was thinking. You have a great club to shoot/practice at. The local clubs I shoot have never taxed me to think about stuff like that. No dis on the local clubs, I think shooters and clubs mirror the good shooters at those clubs. It looks like you fellas have some exceptional talent there. I'm jealous!!! Don't give up on your question thou. Patrick has a great example and I know the great shooters have a formula for hit factors that they use to help their scores. One of the things I learned or am starting to learn after the match is that this is a GAME, when I get to the higher competition level I will use any and all tricks to better my standing. I watched BSeevers shoot a match that he was not exactly happy with, but in the end he won A open. Thats enough for me!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 27, 2002 Author Share Posted September 27, 2002 Okay, now Erik hit the button. Me, i'd keep shooting, not really realizing the HF part. So i need to break out the calculator....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 I hope bonedaddy comes along he has a good example from the nationals last year. Apparantly he was leading the pack on a stage until the second day. When the super sqad came through, they ran the stage with almost inhuman times. As it turned out, they totally skipped a target, I believe it was a drop turner. The points didn't justify the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted September 27, 2002 Share Posted September 27, 2002 Another simple example shooting the last target and running dry. Almost always it is better to take the miss. Eric is right on with the HF calculation. Most good "push"courses are a 5-7 HF range so go with the 3 sec rule there. If top times in your class are 10 HF what should you do? 1.5 sec is not a lot of time. By the the time you see the miss its probably point wasting time. An example I gave James was Texas star stage at Tristate. If you didn't shoot poppers down (6) and get at least 17 or so points on 2 targets you should stand reload and shoot til the cows come home. As I know he would get those hits, I recommended after 5 star misses don't shoot anymore. At his skill level I figured it was a 5.5 HF stage(actually was 4.5 but hey its a little guess work and gut feelings count). 5 points using Eric's calculator is .9 per makeup shot. That's real close to a brand new C Limited shooter's ability to hit a 6 inch moving plate at 12 yards. He had never shot moving stars. Especially if you have to reload again. I have seen many people stand and shoot til they are out of ammo. That's not a good idea. The real key is calling your shots. I had the second fastest time on the stage, shot wrong plates from the start, and made up 2 shots. But I saw my sight and make ups were well within .20 sec range. Well worth it even at a 7 factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 vluc, I don't want to sound patronizing, but the better solution is to improve your shooting ability so you don't have to give up on targets. I'm saying this because, man, I've been there, done that with the shots that are too hard. (Hell, I'm still dealing with getting two good, fast hits on swingers.) It's just so much more satisfying to be able to hit everything than leave a miss or two. And the results are worth it. Ron, you must be talking about that stage Travis won, with the turner down the hall as you moved across. No, it was better to engage it, as everybody above 90% did. http://www.uspsa.org/cgi-bin/stage_display...ol_Stage_15.dat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 28, 2002 Author Share Posted September 28, 2002 Erik, not patronizing at all! I don't want to give up on stages...can't improve if I do that! Just was kind of looking for the point of no return...good info to file away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedaddy Posted September 28, 2002 Share Posted September 28, 2002 Erik, that's the stage I was telling Ron about alright. I had spoken with a couple of guys on the SS that didn't engage it and whooped my butt. Naturally, I assumed that most of them skipped it. Thanks for setting me straight on that, I been thinking wrongly about it all this time. But, that was one fun stage. It would have been cool to see Travis smoke it. I remember a stage in a club match where the last target was a sporting clays rabbit (disappearing), activated by a falling popper. That sucker was 12 yards out and rolling fast, I was surprised by the number of folks who took the shot. It was five pts in a 120 pt stage, I passed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 30, 2002 Share Posted September 30, 2002 Funny, but Saturday I shot a stage and didn't engage the drop-turner. Purely unintentional, got lost and confused at the end, didn't engage targets in the right order to get the DT. I won the stage by 5%, of course with the fastest time. Do as I say not as I do... it's better to get the points if you can get them fast enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 30, 2002 Author Share Posted September 30, 2002 ... it's better to get the points if you can get them fast enough. Now that sums it up for me. Thanks, Erik!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 it's also quite fun to see if ya can keep up with them thar guys that CAN get all of them. I've made more awesome shots just because I wasn't about to let Dave and Erik show me up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBneACP Posted October 1, 2002 Share Posted October 1, 2002 Or you can be like me on a stage at an Area match a couple of years ago...lotsa steel; lotsa stuff moving...I finish the stage and immediately start taking a large ratio of poo-poo from Todd J. and assorted others for quitting before all the targets were down. Finally, I said, "What are you guys talking about?" The three plates you left standing. "What three plates?" Those three plates, they said, pointing. "Where did they come from?" MB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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