Carmoney Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 I like cheap guns that are functional. However, I do not like Glocks. When I found these Armscor "para clones" for $389 (dealer), I couldn't resist checking one out. Since I need a limited steel gun more than a limited USPSA gun right now, I went ahead and ordered the 9mm, and it arrived Thursday. The gun came with a beavertail, ambi thumb safety, real Novak sights, short steel trigger with no overtravel adjustment, external extractor, the crappiest black plastic grips I've ever seen (most toy guns have nicer grips!), and 1 Mec-Gar 17-round 9mm/.38Super magazine with "law enforcement or export" markings. All in all, my impression was that the gun wasn't as good as I had hoped, but nowhere near as bad as I had feared it might be. Everything looked pretty much pure "para" in terms of design. The frame-to-slide fit was pretty rattly, but the barrel to slide fit seemed pretty decent, both front and back--and that's what counts, right? So I took it out back to try it out. Out of the box, it functioned great, no jams of any sort, but threw half the brass directly into my face (although it did this much more gently than a Glock). It also had a very heavy trigger pull, and hit way low at 10 yards with Rem. bulk-pack 115-gr ball ammo. I began the project by filing a bevel on the ejector to send the brass out to the side, easy enough to do, hasn't tossed one back in my face since. I put skateboard tape on the grip-strap, and did a quick trigger job on the stock parts with my Ed Brown jig, taking it down to about 2-3/4 pounds and fairly crisp. On test-fire, though, the hammer began to follow down intermittently, so I looked inside and figured I'd be better off replacing the hammer and sear with better parts. I'm close enough to Brownells that I can get one-day USPS delivery on small packages, so I placed an online order for an extra magazine, the new EGW budget ignition package, and a GunCraft long para trigger (I like the looks of the STI carbon fiber trigger for para better, but it's no longer being stocked). Last night I put it all together. The trigger was kind of a bitch to install correctly, and in fact the bow is shaped a little differently, requiring me to dremel off part of the upper rear corners of the bow to get proper clearance under the grips. The EGW hammer and sear were not at all finished, and required the full treatment, including lowering the hammer hooks and stoning both angles on the sear (what do you want for $68 total, I suppose...). I wound up re-installing the factory disconnector because the EGW unit wanted to stick in the channel for reasons I still don't quite understand. After adjusting everything a few times, test-firing in between, I now have a pretty decent budget trigger job, about 2-3/4 pounds and reasonably clean, which is about as low as I want to go with this particular gun (I normally prefer 1911 triggers at about 2 pounds) and these parts. In order to get it sighted in to point of aim, I drifted out the front sight (yep, it's in a nice dovetail, which is pretty cool for a cheapie gun), filed it narrower, and filed it down lower. I reinstalled it backwards to give me a slightly-undercut black post, rather than the non-serrated ramp that was stock. After a little adjustment to dial it in, it's hitting exactly to point of aim, seems reasonably accurate--not a bullseye gun by any means, but so far seems fine for what I bought it for. I haven't shot any groups with it yet, but painted my plate and shot it standing non-supported, put 20 shots in a nicely-centered round group about 4" at 20 yards. It fits in my Safariland 012, and it's made to work with Para mags. In the .40 version, with a magwell, you could have a real limited gun (not a great limited gun, but a real one nonetheless) for about $650, less mags and basepads. Would it hold up? Who knows! I'm gonna shoot this 9mm version and find out! Here's a photo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 Here's the other side: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuildSF4 Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Looks like it is a least work trying to those that need a limited gun on a budget. External extractor ehhh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Mike If you have one - stick a P18 mag in it and see if it will run??? Might let me try the 9mm for steel and IDPA without having a $$$$ gun built. Hard to go to wrong for that kind of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 Sorry, Merlin, I don't have any genuine factory Para P18 mags.....however, I would bet money it would run just fine with them. The extra mag I ordered from Brownells was the Mec-Gar mag for the Para P18 in .38 Super, and it is identical in every respect to the one that came with the Armscor gun, right down to the "law enforcement and expert only" lettering. I've actually had very good luck with Mec-Gars in my Paras, and they're less than $20 apiece, which is half the price of the Para mags. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Good enough! I think I will order one and check it out. I like my P18 and having a single action copy for half the cost seems very appealing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 Shot another couple hundred rounds out back, no glitches, trigger's beginning to settle in decently. What the hell, I think I'll take to Osceola for the steel match tomorrow. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Mike, Have fun with your non-revolver blaster !!!! For about 150 bucks more you could have bought a good Para and not had to do all that stuff, but me thinks you like Tinkering with them anyway. Let us know how the thing runs for the steel match, might see one of these on a prize table one day..... HOP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 its a good pistol. i changed my trigger group (sear hammer disconnector. titanium strut and cup. and 4 finger sear spring) installed a cmore and will shoot minor 9 till i get a comp and put it through major 9 paces. also i changed the ms housing to svi plastic(dremel will come in handy) to lighten the weight. Ill also install a full length guide rod since i have one on hand. lowered the port and adjusted the ejector angle. Ill also replace the trigger with an aluminum trigger for faster reset. lastly, para mags will fit and wont be a problem. Ill add a plus basepad on my meggar and replace the internals to get hopefully 23 rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Jason Any problem on yours changing the disconnector? How many rounds through your gun and any problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 JasonAny problem on yours changing the disconnector? How many rounds through your gun and any problems? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This is a new project gun, in fact ill just be getting it next week. we have quite a few armscor guns shot in competition. Most if not all of them replace the sear hammer and disconnector since they want a pull less than 2 pounds. i think these are the only parts you need to replace if you need a sub 2 pull. other than that, the firing pin stop breaks at around 15t rounds and drifire. extractor may lossen up after 15t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 21, 2005 Author Share Posted August 21, 2005 For about 150 bucks more you could have bought a good Para and not had to do all that stuff, but me thinks you like Tinkering with them anyway. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Y'know what? I like my Para P14-45 Limited a lot......BUT I still had the change out the innards to get the trigger pull where I wanted it (just a little under 2 pounds and nice 'n' crispy! (There's also just something cool about showing up with a cheap "sleeper" and seeing how many way more expensive guns I can beat with it--half the reason I shot revolvers at bowling pins all those years was to see the looks on the faces of all those guys with the high-dollar 1911 compensated pin guns after I whipped up on 'em good!) Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 For about 150 bucks more you could have bought a good Para and not had to do all that stuff, but me thinks you like Tinkering with them anyway. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Y'know what? I like my Para P14-45 Limited a lot......BUT I still had the change out the innards to get the trigger pull where I wanted it (just a little under 2 pounds and nice 'n' crispy! (There's also just something cool about showing up with a cheap "sleeper" and seeing how many way more expensive guns I can beat with it--half the reason I shot revolvers at bowling pins all those years was to see the looks on the faces of all those guys with the high-dollar 1911 compensated pin guns after I whipped up on 'em good!) Mike <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sadist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 21, 2005 Author Share Posted August 21, 2005 Update: The Armscor ran great today at the steel match, this deal is looking better and better. Accuracy seems better with Winchester white box ammo than with Rem., but that could be just me getting used to the gun. Still haven't benched it, but it seems to be shooting just fine. No malfunctions of any kind with my Mec-Gar mags. Merlin: I did have a chance to try a buddy's P18 magazine with Dawson basepad and had a weird sort of malfunction where the first shot would fire, the second round would feed, but then sear wouldn't reset for the second shot.....did the same thing all three times I tried to shoot the gun with that mag. I didn't have a chance to thoroughly check it out but it's gotta be some sort of interference between the magazine and the sear spring. Glad I didn't bet any real money on those working.... Again, the Mec-Gars work flawlessly, but now I guess I don't know quite what to expect from factory Para mags.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted August 21, 2005 Share Posted August 21, 2005 When I bought my P18 I bought 5 new Para mags - never had a single malfunction with any of them... Hmmm...? Kinda odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 22, 2005 Author Share Posted August 22, 2005 Just to be sure I was clear.....Bob's Para mags work perfectly fine in his Para, just like you'd expect, but there is some weird incompatibility with my Armscorp cheapie. I suspect that's only the case with my particular gun, and maybe it has something to do with the way I adjusted the sear spring on my particular gun, but I figured I better let you know before you buy one hoping it will work fine with your mags. It might, or it might not. Then again, the Meg-Gars are pretty cheap if 17+1 will do ya. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Then again, the Meg-Gars are pretty cheap if 17+1 will do ya. Mike <{POST_SNAPBACK}> you can replace the inernals since the follower on meggars are thick. you can squezee 18 after replacing the spring and follower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 im probably gonna get one just to fool around with! 9mm liimited steel gun would be uber cool; too bad about the external extractor.. is the barrel ramped? if so, what kind of ramp is it? the para ramp or the nowlin ramp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 22, 2005 Author Share Posted August 22, 2005 It is ramped. I haven't made a close comparison, but just eyeballing it I'm pretty sure it's the para/clark type ramp. There is a cut-away area for the external extractor, so an aftermarket barrel may need some additional processing to install. I like the external extractor just fine so far. I'll stop liking it if it ever fails to do its job, I suppose....but so far so good. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 mine is ramped with the para cut. dark side here i come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 I suspect that's only the case with my particular gun, and maybe it has something to do with the way I adjusted the sear spring on my particular gun.Then again, the Meg-Gars are pretty cheap if 17+1 will do ya. Mike <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The problem is most likely the trigger bow is dragging on the mag body. I have several para's and some mags are just wide enough to drag and keeps the trigger front fully returning. Take some calipers and check the width of the differnet mags just below the taper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I gotta tell ya, If I didnt have a STI steel gun built, the Armscor would be the ticket! I shot Carmoney's creation at the steel match and it is definitely a best buy at it's price. Ran like a champ. Good steel gun for those on a budget! I cant wait to see what the .40 is like! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 doesnt the 40 version come with a ramped bull barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 The problem is most likely the trigger bow is dragging on the mag body. I have several para's and some mags are just wide enough to drag and keeps the trigger front fully returning. Take some calipers and check the width of the differnet mags just below the taper. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey, that could be the problem....might be just that one mag, for all I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted August 23, 2005 Author Share Posted August 23, 2005 doesnt the 40 version come with a ramped bull barrel? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I haven't seen one in person yet, but I kinda assume they're just like the 9mm 1911-A2s--that is, ramped, bushing barrels. Anybody else know for sure? If my nine keeps running good, I'll definitely have to order a .40 too! This set-up could be a really good way for the working guy who likes 1911-platform guns, but must stay on a budget, to get into this sport. Or how about a back-up gun to haul along to matches just in case the main blaster breaks down. Still too early to tell anything long-term, but I'm liking it so far. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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