Stock 3 Fire Control Problems

[JayTac556]

I am running a Tanfoglio Stock 3 with the following upgrades:

     - Titan Hammer

     - Xtreme One Piece Sear

     - Patriot Defense Bolo Interrupter

     - Patriot Defense Optimized Firing Pin Spring

     - Patriot Defense 14# Optimized Hammer Spring

     - Patriot Defense Reduced Power Sear Spring

     - Patriot Defense Optimized Reduced Power Trigger Return Spring 

     - Patriot Defense Extended Firing Pin

     - Henning #18 Lightest Trigger Plunger Spring

     - Henning Conefit Guide Rod with brass bushing and 10# Recoil Spring

     - Extreme Firing Pin Safety

 

I have been getting many different issues with this setup. The main issue is the firing pin block is not working properly. I know people will say just remove it but I compete in USPSA Area matches and they sometimes check this safety feature, therefore, this is not an option. I noticed the problem when I installed the Patriot Defense Extended Firing Pin. When the hammer is in "HALF" cocked position the firing pin is NOT able to be pushed through the firing pin channel. When the hammer is in "FULL" cocked position the firing pin is able to be pushed through the channel (UNSAFE).  I ordered the Xtreme "Extended" firing pin block and still having the same issue. I also put the original firing pin back in with the Extended firing pin block and with the original firing pin block and still having the same issue. 

 

Ben Stoeger Pro Shop has an EAA/Tanfoglio Witness One Piece LONG Sear for $36.95. Does anyone have any solutions to this very frustrating problem? Is the One Piece Long Sear the solution?

 

Also, I am loading 3.0 Grains of Tite Group under 147 Grain Blue Bullets Flat Point at 1.12 OAL. I am not contacting the lead of the barrel at all and all my ammo is case checked and barrel checked. I am not having any feeding issues at all but I am having a lot of failure to fire issues. I do not believe that they are light strikes. The hit looks good and my press is seating the primers all the way. This seems odd because I am running a 14# Patriot Defense Hammer Spring. 

 

Thank you all for your help. 

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

What brand of primer?

 

Define “seating them all the way,” because a flush primer is still a high primer. Just less so than a raised one. A CCI primer can be driven .005” below flush in most brass, and other brands will go deeper.

 

The Bolo causes a very weak double-action strike, the factory disconnector pushes the hammer back further before it falls.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[JayTac556]

50 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

What brand of primer?

 

Define “seating them all the way,” because a flush primer is still a high primer. Just less so than a raised one. A CCI primer can be driven .005” below flush in most brass, and other brands will go deeper.

 

The Bolo causes a very weak double-action strike, the factory disconnector pushes the hammer back further before it falls.

 

 

I'm using Winchester Primers and they are much deeper than flush.  I did not know that the Bolo causes weak double action strikes. I did notice that the hammer does not go as far back as if it were sitting on the single action hammer legs. 

[MemphisMechanic]

 

In DA the hammer doesn’t fully cock. The bolo has a shorter stroke than a factory disco, but you can remedy that. I did in my gun, and it was a huge help.

 

That said, I’m leading you astray. WIN primers should absolutely fire in that gun if it’s functioning properly. You lead yourself directly to the cause, but didn’t make the final leap.

 

More than likely, your firing pin is contacting the block on it’s way past and losing momentum. Take the block out and go fire dozens and dozens rounds of that same ammo in double action: decock, shoot, repeat.

 

If it works 100%, you’ve isolated the problem... and also proofed your ammo at the same time. I had FPB issues early on, so I shot several practices & local matches without a firing pin block until I got the gun 100% reliable, then finally got an extended FPB fitted correctly on the second try.

 

Edited November 27, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[je85]

3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

In DA the hammer doesn’t fully cock. The bolo has a shorter stroke than a factory disco, but you can remedy that. I did in my gun, and it was a huge help.

How does one do this?

[JayTac556]

3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

In DA the hammer doesn’t fully cock. The bolo has a shorter stroke than a factory disco, but you can remedy that. I did in my gun, and it was a huge help.

 

 

How did you do it. Any help would be appreciated!! Also do you have any information as to the firing pin block problem? Is the long leg sear the answer?

[MemphisMechanic]

2 minutes ago, JayTac556 said:

 

 

How did you do it. Any help would be appreciated!! Also do you have any information as to the firing pin block problem? Is the long leg sear the answer?

 

You file the top of the firing pin block down until it clears when the hammer falls, but still bites when you haven’t pulled the trigger.

 

I don’t believe I ever tested mine at half-cock. Just in DA and SA. 

[MemphisMechanic]

4 minutes ago, JayTac556 said:

 

 

How did you do it. Any help would be appreciated!! Also do you have any information as to the firing pin block problem? Is the long leg sear the answer?

 

Search. @PatriotDefense created a post something like “tuning a bolo for longer DA pull” a tear or more ago, and it works great.

Edited November 27, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[JayTac556]

3 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

You file the top of the firing pin block down until it clears when the hammer falls, but still bites when you haven’t pulled the trigger.

 

I don’t believe I ever tested mine at half-cock. Just in DA and SA. 

 

Yes but my thing is that I need more material on my firing pin block because it is already clearing it when it is not supposed to. My leg on my sear is not contacting the block at all so removing material would be counter productive I would think. 

[je85]

 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, JayTac556 said:

Yes but my thing is that I need more material on my firing pin block because it is already clearing it when it is not supposed to. My leg on my sear is not contacting the block at all so removing material would be counter productive I would think. 

 

Joe at Patriot Defense told me that on one gun he had to tig weld more material onto the extended firing pin block to make it long enough. My guns are set up the same as yours and I have never had to remove any material from the extended FPB, which makes me think that set up might be biased toward the extended block being on the short side (my guns pass safety check but I have to use an oem or xtreme firing pin on one gun or it will not, PD pins are a wee bit smaller in the round dimension). 

 

Good luck. 

 

On the bright side, Stock 3's (and 2's) rock if you get through the set up bull poop without tossing them in a river. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by IHAVEGAS

[johnbu]

15 hours ago, JayTac556 said:

Henning #18 Lightest Trigger Plunger Spring 

 

First off REMOVE that spring and replace it with the factory spring. The BOLO likes a stronger spring.

 

Next REMOVE the trigger over travel screw. It can cause the 1/2 cock hooks to contact the sear resulting in light strikes. If the 1/64th to 1/32nd of an inch travel harms your match score, I'd be shocked. 

 

Have you launched #2 pencils in DA and SA.?  How high are they going? Difference between DA and SA is ... ?

Are all the same height? Random short launch can mean something is grabbing , rubbing or sticking.

 

As mentioned by MemphisMechanic, diagnostically remove the FPB to verify everything else is working.

 

I have no idea of your level of gunsmithery skills, so don't take this wrong...

 

Have you followed the "bolo DA stroke" instructions from Joe? (Link was posted above)

 

Did you follow the polishing guide MM made? Did you polish the firing pin channel and bsck side of the extractor? Does the trigger feel totally smooth? Are the hammer or trigger pins standing proud (above surface)? And sadly, it IS POSSIBLE to polish too much and cause problems. None is bad, some is good, too much is worse! 

 

Does the sear cage move when the DA is actuated? If so, it may need to have material added to reduce clearance. or find one that fits tighter. (I suspect it is and needs to be pushed up. That would explain the FPB not working)

[JayTac556]

2 hours ago, johnbu said:

 

First off REMOVE that spring and replace it with the factory spring. The BOLO likes a stronger spring.

 

Next REMOVE the trigger over travel screw. It can cause the 1/2 cock hooks to contact the sear resulting in light strikes. If the 1/64th to 1/32nd of an inch travel harms your match score, I'd be shocked. 

 

Have you launched #2 pencils in DA and SA.?  How high are they going? Difference between DA and SA is ... ?

Are all the same height? Random short launch can mean something is grabbing , rubbing or sticking.

 

As mentioned by MemphisMechanic, diagnostically remove the FPB to verify everything else is working.

 

I have no idea of your level of gunsmithery skills, so don't take this wrong...

 

Have you followed the "bolo DA stroke" instructions from Joe? (Link was posted above)

 

Did you follow the polishing guide MM made? Did you polish the firing pin channel and bsck side of the extractor? Does the trigger feel totally smooth? Are the hammer or trigger pins standing proud (above surface)? And sadly, it IS POSSIBLE to polish too much and cause problems. None is bad, some is good, too much is worse! 

 

Does the sear cage move when the DA is actuated? If so, it may need to have material added to reduce clearance. or find one that fits tighter. (I suspect it is and needs to be pushed up. That would explain the FPB not working)

 Hey thank you for the reply. No offense taken lol hense why im on the forum haha. I did follow the guide and i just did the bolo DA stroke tune last night. I took a total od .010 off the overall and the hammer is coming back just a hair shorter than SA. Everything is polished, extractor, fo channel, etc  (not over poliished as far as i know) 

 

  I will be removing the FPB and trying it out but when it come times for matches I need that to work unfortunately. 

 

  As far as the pencil test im now shooting the eraser 13 in passed the bore in SA and 12 in passed the bore in DA. 

 

  I didnt check to see if the sear cage is moving while pulling the trigger in DA. 

 

  I installed the old hammer and old FPB and everything functions as it should. I actually found something interesting out, my findings with the new titan hammers. It seems like the legs on the hammer that the sear sits on does not allow the sear to drop far enough down to engage the FPB, which is why installing the old hammer everything works great. Ill post a picture if i can figure out how to do it lol. So the picture is too big but when i get home after work ill post one. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by JayTac556

[johnbu]

7 hours ago, JayTac556 said:

I actually found something interesting out, my findings with the new titan hammers. It seems like the legs on the hammer that the sear sits on does not allow the sear to drop far enough down to engage the FPB, which is why installing the old hammer everything works great. Ill post a picture if i can figure out how to do it lol. So the picture is too big but when i get home after work ill post one. 

 

I'm not following what you mean here.  Pictures for sure! 

It wouldn't be the first time where a part was "improved" and it no longer worked !

 

Your pencil launch heights are good.  With that level of launch, you shouldn't have any fail to ignite issues (shouldn't). 

 

If you are keeping the over travel screw in the trigger,  Be sure to have a "generous" amount of over travel and then lock tite it in place.  That screw will move over time and give grief. 

[JayTac556]

34 minutes ago, johnbu said:

 

I'm not following what you mean here.  Pictures for sure! 

It wouldn't be the first time where a part was "improved" and it no longer worked !

 

Your pencil launch heights are good.  With that level of launch, you shouldn't have any fail to ignite issues (shouldn't). 

 

If you are keeping the over travel screw in the trigger,  Be sure to have a "generous" amount of over travel and then lock tite it in place.  That screw will move over time and give grief. 

 

 

Hey so I have been home and talking with a buddy of mine who owns a stock 1 and he is also getting approx 19 SA and 22 DA in on the "pencil" Test. I am still not getting that. I have installed all factory parts again with the same issue of 10-12 in.

 

Anyways I have taken a picture and I drew on one of them pointing out exactly what I am trying to say. I really hope it clears it up. The titan hammer is the far one and the stock hammer is the close one. The hammer legs are at the same position in this picture and when the sear rests against the legs the sear is able to drop lower in the stock hammer (reason why the titan hammer in SA is so crisp). The sear dropping lower into the hammer allows the sear leg to lift higher to engage the FPB this is the reason for the Extended FPB to be installed with the titan hammers. Although I am still not reaching the FPB to engage it for safety for my USPSA matches. 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by JayTac556

[johnbu]

On 11/27/2018 at 7:29 PM, JayTac556 said:

The sear dropping lower into the hammer allows the sear leg to lift higher to engage the FPB this is the reason for the Extended FPB to be installed with the titan hammers.

 

How are you testing the functionality of the FPB? I just want to know you're method.

 

Also, have you removed the over travel screw from the trigger (at least diagnostically).

 

Here's a test...

 

Pull the trigger and hold it fully back. Manually thumb the hammer. It should swing without feeling any resistance, hesitation, friction, etc. If you feel some, dig in to find it.

 

Finally, should everything feel right, but still have low impact energy (low pencil launch, light strikes), you may need to increase hammer spring weight.

 

I actually highly recommend it to help polish mating parts AND to perfect trigger control. Learning to hold Alphas with a max spring will really test your grip mechanics and technique. Wolff makes them up to a stout 22# ! Oh, use a snap cap with strong springs.  lol. Just switch back a few weeks before match season starts up. (Our winter DF season is Oct - April)

[JayTac556]

12 hours ago, johnbu said:

 

How are you testing the functionality of the FPB? I just want to know you're method.

 

Also, have you removed the over travel screw from the trigger (at least diagnostically).

 

Hey John,

 

I test the FPB by racking the slide putting it in single action and keeping my finger off the trigger and using a punch to depress the firing pin. I am able to depress the firing pinpin all the way out of the breach face. 

 

Once i read your thread i actually removed the over travel screw completley and it is in the box with all the other parts, I do not plan on ever putting that back in the gun again.

[johnbu]

Ok, that's all correct. 

 

Have you compared the extended FPB to the factory one?  just on the chance you were given a std one by mistake.

 

I've also seen where a poorly adjusted fpb can wear the pin and blocking part. 

 

If it's indeed the correct part and not damaged, you'll need to tig weld material onto it.  Can also try a new sear, sear cage, Fpb in hopes of it working. I've had luck at times, swapping parts around.

[IHAVEGAS]

58 minutes ago, johnbu said:

If it's indeed the correct part and not damaged, you'll need to tig weld material onto it. 

 

How painful is that to get done somewhere?

Using the exact same parts as the o.p. , I've never had to remove material off of the extended FPB's and engagement distance has seemed marginal, so marginal that the very slightly smaller PD firing pin will not work ( safety check) in two guns.

 

I think he has it right.

 

On 11/27/2018 at 7:29 PM, JayTac556 said:

The sear dropping lower into the hammer allows the sear leg to lift higher to engage the FPB this is the reason for the Extended FPB to be installed with the titan hammers.

 

[johnbu]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:



How painful is that to get done somewhere? 

U

 

Check with welding repair places. 

 

A "buddy with a tig" may be optimum.

[JayTac556]

2 hours ago, johnbu said:

Have you compared the extended FPB to the factory one?  just on the chance you were given a std one by mistake.

 

So the factory FPB is exactly .491" long and the extended FPB (Extreme) is .506" long.

 

Im not exactly sure how long the extended is supposed to be. Maybe someone can messure theirs and post it up here.

 

Thank you all for the feed back. Getting to the range monday and wednesday to test run this finally. (Without the FPB) to see is that is the exact the issue. Fingers crossed she runs flawless.