9mm Rifle report from range

[Carlos]

Wrung out the new Colt 16" 9mm upper after Sunday's local match. Its a complete pre-ban colt upper on a '92 Oly lower w/ a new ASA drop in block (supposed to relicate the old Tac-Block and 40 round Argie made Uzi mags converted to AR use by CDNN in Tx.

First, it did not like CCI blazer 115gr - it choked 1/3 of the time w/ FTFeed jams.  Switched to Russian steel cased 115FMJ - viola! perfect function (hey, this ammo is about $89/k at gunshows).

At 100 yards offhand, it was easy to keep all doubletap shots on a standard target and if one slows down just a little bit, A-zone hits were easy. At 300 meters in stiff wind, we could not hit a 12" gong offhand - we stopped wasting 9mm ammo before going to sandbags. Suffice to say that the 9mm rifle is viable as a 3gun rifle at 100 yards, possible at 200, and not likely at 300m (all matches around here are inside 100 yards.

Then switched to Russian Silver bear 145 gr HP. Its supposed to go "1200 FPS". Out of a pistol, we chronoed it at over 1100, but not close to 1200.  Out of the rifle? Will have to wait to test it over the chrono but suffice to say it meets minor easily. Then it jammed. Several hollowpoint rounds seemed to hang up on the way into the chamber. Too bad too since the 145s shot VERY soft indeed!

Have looked into Federal Am Eagle 147 FMJ and Winchester whitebox 147 FMJ.  Anyone know who has the best delivered price on 147 FMJ? Best so far was Chestnutt Ridge Supply for about $150 /1000 before shipping.

[DogmaDog]

Carlos,

http://www.natchezss.com has Federal 147gr on sale for 6.99 a box.  About $16 to ship 1000 rounds.  So about the same price as you've already found.

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[Patrick Sweeney]

Check the bottom lip of the feed ramp for brassing.  Some guns hold the mags too low (or the mags sit too low) and the round has to carom off the bottom lip.

One gun I treated at an LEO class was a marginal performer, until I tracked it down to the feed ramp, which had been cut high by Colt.  A little filing, a lttle stoning, and it worked fine.

A 9mm at 300 yards in a cross breeze?  You optomist, you.

[Carlos]

Thanks for the tip! I just ordered 5 surplus IMI 20 or 25 rounders from Sarco that I plan to machine myself to work in the Colt upper. Will be sure to check for adequate mag height before I cut.

The 9mm at 300 yard deal was not my idea; a gunsmith friend who is a fantastic offhand shot, was convinced we could do it. In fairness, he had us hitting that 300m gong with an ancient 30-30 that same day - I think he said it was 108 years old & it has a heavy octagon barrel. I even hit it once out of 4 shots with that old antique levergun. I guesse they knew a thing or two about accuracy back then. Unfortunately, as I suspected, the 9mm is not up to the task.

However, later that day we consistently hit that 300 m gong with an Oly 20 bull barrel and cheap old surplus .223 Malasian 55 grn ball from the early 80s. I was surprised how deep a crater the 55s left in that 1/2" steel diamond plate. They seemed just as deep as the 7.62s that hit it.

[EricW]

Carlos,

Try seeing if those Malaysian bullets stick to a magnet.  If so, the mystery of the .223 crater is solved.  Our club banned steel core ammo for matches because of the excessive target damage.  Get someone shooting .308 with steel cores at a match and watch your targets vaporize before your eyes.

E

[Carlos]

Tried a magnet on them; they are copper jacket & lead. I had some of the 62 green tip 5.56 that is supposed to have the steel core; we decided not to try it after seeing what plain lead and copper could do!

On a side note, our local indoor range features 3 gun where invariably, an AK shows up. You should see the sparks fly when that steel jacket ammo hits the backstop a popper or a plate - its impressive. Have not closely inspected the poopers or plates for damage, but my .223 rounds don't seem to affect the targets much; must be hardened steel.

[Steve Moneypenny]

the reason for the velocity loss in a rifle is the fast burning pistol powders burn up completely before they get to the end of the barrel, thus the rifling slows the bullet back down some giving an actual loss of velocity with a longer barrel... had an olympic arms 9mm upper for a while, my conclusions are a 10, or 12 " bbl is about all is useful in a 9mm.

glad to see someone is playing with something besides a 223. much quieter also.

how can you shoot an AK at an indoor range. i have miainly just seen indoor pistol only ranges.

[gm iprod]

Try loading the 9mm with a slightly slower powder, like N350 or Winchester Super Field or 540. I shoot a Ruger PC9 and get 1500fps with 115gr JHP. Works great on goats out to 80M or a little more.

[warpspeed]

gm iprod,

perhaps not the right place for this but ..

My current "project" is a Ruger PC9 for IPSC 3-gun.

I am still making some modifications but will be staring my load development soon. I have both the WW 540 and VV 350 in my stock of powders. I also have plenty of 9mm 115 JHP projectiles.

What are your loads to get 1500 fps ?  I would really like a starting point. Please inc. the crimp and Overall Length too. Have you tried anything heavier like a 124gr JHP ?

[gm iprod]

warpspeed,

Loads below. You have to load fairly hot to get 1500fps in the PC9, but the loads are safe in MY RIFLE. You will loose most of the brass and if you do find any check carefully before re-using. All these pessures are up around32,000 psi according to three different load manuals.

I have only done work with the 115gr JHP or a 147gr Lead. The lead I use for subsonic work and use with a silencer. We have also trialled, for the New Zealand Police, a PC9 with their issue ammo. Which they kindly supplied a good size box off the stuff. Some of which seems to have found its way home for further analysis, especially the LE only 124gr +P+. In the rifle this does 1470fps. Oh by the way it is legal in NZ for us to own LE ammo. Although all the boxes are marked as such.

Max load length is 1.15", crimp is too dependant on your brass for me to give an exact figure. I dislike doing that anyway as to many people can't measure worth a tin of . So use your common sense and check the crimp area carefully. You understand the consequenses.

115gr JHP,

WW540  max 6.6gr. Velocity in rifle 1520fps. Handgun 5.5" Tanfoglio Match 1240fps. Can be dirty. But quite accurate

WW Super Field  max 5.7gr. Rifle 1535fps. Handgun 1248fps. Watch pressures as this powder is a faster burnrate than 540. Dirt as above.

V V N340 Max 6.1gr. Rifle 1580fps. Handgun 1321fps.

V V N350 Max 6.5gr. Rifle 1560fps. Handgun 1313fps.

V V 3N37 Max 6.9gr. Rifle 1570fps. Handgun 1322fps.

All V V Loads very hot and be carefull.

A couple of guys I shoot with use 124gr, Accuracy about the same but velocity is only down a little. PF would be very similar for all loads. But use accuracy as your best guide, PF is secondary unless you are way down.

115gr at 1535fps = 176PF

I am currently trying Hodgdon Titegroup, it shoots real accurate, although a little dirty. Velocities not as fast as the slower burners. But I can live with 3" groups at 75yards ghost ring sights. I will get round to putting a scope on one day. But other toys await.

[Carlos]

gm inprod: I tested out the N350 load you listed; actually an older VV manual I own lists .1 grn more than that so it is what I used for use in a very strong, modern, rifle w/ 1x fired military style brass (S. African) and Montana Gold 115 JHP. Did not go with rifle primers but encountered no problems.  For testing purposes, I fired 1 such round through the G-19 without evidence of a bulged case or excessive pressure from WSP primer appearance. The N350 load was quite unpleasant to shoot in the Glock.

At any rate, it was very accurate and reliable in the 16" AR-15. Unfortunately did not have the op. to chrono; perhaps next time. With such a slow powder, I am expecting 1500 fps +. If not, may try N-105 supermagnum.

However, my cursory and unscientific testing of factory loads lead me to the conclusion that the 147 grn is the way to go; recoil was quite noticeably softer which lead to less upset of the front sight. We used the Russian silver bear 145 gr. JHP which claims 1200 FPS. - it actually chronoed at  a little over 1100 fps out of a comped 5" STI 2011 - still respectable velocity. Feeding was about 80%, so will not be using it in the future.

I predict that the ideal factory match load for the AR will be the 147 FMJ offering from Federal (American eagle), UMC/remington yellow box, or Winchester whitebox.

Smoney: the trend here in the DC area is towards indoor rifle ranges - up to 416 Rigby (sorry, leave the 50 BMG at home). There are 2 such ranges currently, soon to be 3.  Any standard/magnum rifle is OK, though the hot 30s and short barreled rifles are unpleasant to shoot next to. Not sure what the backstop is made of; it is under a constant cascade of filtered liquid.

More results to follow.

[warpspeed]

Thanks GM IPROD.

Will test 'em out and let you know.

[Patrick Sweeney]

A local club has a range good out to 600 yards.  On wednesdays int he warm weather months they allow anyone who can stay safe to come and shoot.  Once I've gotten my .308 Remington and Colt AR zeroed, I might just show up with the 9mm (on a calm day) and see what I can accomplish.

I'm used to the gawking, I've practiced skeet with my IPSC 1100.

[gm iprod]

Some of the guys at one of the clubs I shoot at shoot .22 Silhouette. They practice on a 4" plate at 100M. I just love to piss them off when I shoot the plate with my NRA Open pistol, prone! using a 7moa Aimpoint. I tend to hit it 80% of the time when I get my

together. They use 16X+ scopes. So accuracy of the firearm is not usually an issue.

(Edited by gm iprod at 4:19 am on May 31, 2002)

[EvilPJ]

Are there any (cheap) factory loaded ammo that can make rifle minor from 16" barrel?

Those Russian 147 grains maybe?

[Carlos]

The Russian Silver bear will do it out of my gun; I chronoed it a few weeks back. Its actually a 145 grain JHP bullet and it was not reliable in MY colt AR upper (your results may vary); jamming several times in a 40 round mag. Little recoil though, and it convinced me that 147 grn is the way to go.

[BPiatt]

My police department, as well as several others in the county, have been putting 9mm & .40 cal carbines in the patrol cars.  The county Firearms Instructor Association did extensive testing on both calibers and at least 5 different longguns.  (I can recall Colt 9mm, Ruger PC-9 and PC-40, HK UMP's, MP-5's, and the Marlin Camp Carbine)  Using factory ammo only, because that is all that they would be using, chono comparisions were done between rifle and pistol.  It was interesting that EVERY ammo tried either stayed the same or increased in velocity.  Contrary to popular belief, not once did we get a slower velocity thru the longer barrels.  Velocities increased upto 175 fps with some ammo.

Only specifics I can recall is my duty ammo.

Winchester Ranger SXT 127gr +P+

From my Glock 19 1275 fps and a Ruger PC-9 1405 fps.

For those interested in reliability, .40 caliber jams dramatically outnumbered 9mm.  Keep and eye on the Ruger's action screw just in front of the magazine well.  It has lockwashers and locktite but still manages to work loose.  

BP

[Carlos]

Bill: my chrono tests confirm your department's findings. We did not get as large a velocity increase as I had hoped, but there were no decreases. In addition, I am using a standard AR-15A2 buffer with my Colt brand 9mm upper; there is a heavier buffer Made by Colt for use with its blowback AR-15.  A heavier buffer *can* increase velocity slightly and I plan to get the 9mm buffer sometime. I was also dissapointed w/ the V V manual load mentioned by GMin prod. above; its certainly hot, but I thought the slow N350 powder would really cook in a 16 in tube.  Same with the Norma manufactured Danish surplus subgun ammo we tried; its berdan w/ a copper coated steel jacket 107 grn bullet and what appears to be a VV powder I have never seen (aren't Norma and VV owned by same company?). Since this ammo was made for a relatively long SMG barrel, I was hoping for a big velocity increase over a GLock 19. The inrease was not that great - certainly less than the 175 FPS you mentioned. I suppose I had unrealistic expectations for the 9mm AR. Will look for the numbers at home to give you a specific idea.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Bruce:

In the LEO AR classes I teach, we have officers show up with whatever the department issues.  Besides every variant of the AR, I've seen M-1Carbines, SKS, Sig 550, and the Ruger.  The Ruger is definitely down the list of choices, and would not be one I would be happy with.

The velocity increase depends on barrel length, bore size and friction,and the powder the manufacturer uses.  You'll get some, but don't count on any increase for improved performance.

I had the chance to shoot my 9mm on the National Guard 300M pop-up course.  I scored 8 of 20 first time through, then held ridiculously high on everything past 100M on the next run and scored a blazing 14.  (I have no idea how I connected on that superbly unlucky 300M pop-up)

In an LE setting, I would not take a shot with a 9mm past 100 yards.  (And even at 100, only reluctantly.)  In a military setting, I'd be happily engaged w/drilling bad guys out to 200.

[Carlos]

Agreed that for 3 gun as it should exist - by testing the shooter w/ targets out to 300 meters - the 9mm does not compare to the .223.  Around here, the longest USPSA 3gun shots have been moved to 140 yards, where they can be engaged by the 9mm.  Besides, the 9 comes in handy for rifle practice during the winter.

[EvilPJ]

I just got some of that Russian 145 gr. ammo (Brown Bear) and I'll test it on this weekend.  I just hope it is reliable in my AR. Thanks for info Carlos.

Vihtavuori is a Finnish company now owned by Lapua which is a part of Nammo (Nammo Lapua). Nammo (=Nordic Ammunition Company) has couple of factories in Sweden (Nammo Sweden) but I think Norma is not one of them. Norma Precion AB was bought by Dynamit Nobel at some point and I think they still own it. So  Norma is from Sweden.

There seems to be only 9.1 grams (140 grains) difference between A2's buffer and Colt's 9mm buffer. (http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/buffers/) So I doubt that it is going to make much of a difference in bullet velocity. But let us know what you find out.

[Carlos]

Thanks for doing the research PJ. BTW, for everyone else, the website that PJ referenced (Bighammer) is an excellent source for tech/historical data on the AR rifle. Good find!

Sad to hear that about the 140 grain buffer difference though; I suppose my expectations of the 9mm in a rifle length barrel were too high and I should not pin my hopes on a heavier buffer adding much velocity.

You did not mention what gun you plan to use the Russian Silver Bear 145 JHP ammo in; I found it about 80% reliable in my AR (Colt upper, Oly preban lower, ASA block, and CDNN Argie 40 round Uzi mags). It does shoot well out of the carbine though - faster splits w/ 145 than w/ hot 115.

[EvilPJ]

I have Oly 9mm upper with modified Sten mags (no blocks).  I shot 100 rounds with that upper (Bushmaster lower with Wolff +10% spring) and there were no problems with that ammo. Pf was 169 so it makes rifle minor easily. I'll still have to test how this ammo groups from a longer distances.

I have both Silver Bear and Brown Bear as 145 grs and only difference between them seems to be that Silver Bear has shiny plated cases.

PJ

[John Thompson]

My Kelt-tec 9mm shoots great with 147gr lead cranked by slow WAP powder at full charge.  At 100yards though I was unable to hit a peice of I beam that I was nailing(well actually shooting through) with a .223 carbine.

This gun is some serious fun on the steel chalenge type courses.

We use Ruger PC .40 at work and almost every one who tried my Kel Tec much prefered it to the Ruger. The PC 40 jams like a mother...

(Edited by John Thompson at 5:47 pm on Sep. 9, 2002)