Transitioning to revolver - advice?

[mhoosier]

It’s been a while since I’ve been on the forum or shot competitively (about 2 years!).  I have shot the 1911 / 2011 platform and just broke into A class before I stopped shooting. I enjoy USPSA and steel challenge.  I’d love to try icore, but don’t see it in my area...I can shoot the other 2 three weekends every month. 

 

I had a chance to shoot some sweet revolvers a couple weeks ago and loved the feel. I shot a nice model 625, model 60 and a Python. So for a change up I’d like to start shooting revolver in USPSA and steel. I made plenty of gear mistakes getting into bottom feeders, and thought some experienced advice might help me get it more right the first time. 

 

I do reload (Dillon 650).  The aforementioned revolvers will be in my possession in November (the result of a friend passing away), so I am leaning towards the 627 so I can shoot the reloads in it, the Python and the model 60 which will be my new carry gun and I like shooting my carry gun regularly too.  I’m planning to trade in my first competition gun in on the 627 since I haven’t shot it in over 5 years (CZ).

 

3 questions:

1. For competition, what else do I need to buy to complete the rig?  Specifically, what brands and what components do I need in order to avoid issues (ie what brass/moon clip combo, moon clip holder, etc)

2. What load data should I start with? 

3. What work do I need to get done on the 627 initially?  

 

Thanks in in advance for the help!

[radny97]

You need moonclips. And buy the TK Custom ones. They don’t bend like pretty much every other brand. You’ll waste money trying others. 

There are lots of good moon clip holders. Personally i like the Speedbeez holder on a DAA belt. But there are many good ones. 

The 627 is the go to gun for USPSA and ICORE limited and Steel. There are many more options if you want to try classic division in ICORE. In IDPA the 625 is popular.

For holsters there are also lots of good ones.  I like the safariland competition holster. 

On ammo, 38 special and 38 short colts are popular. If you don’t have a big stash of 38 special brass hanging around then i would consider going right to 38 short colts. Starline sells the brass and Lee makes a three set of dies. Use a 9mm taper crimp die to finish. You can load them to light 9mm load data. Only shoot in 357 mag guns.

If you go with 38 special, you’ll have to get into the +P loads to make power factor. 

Good luck!!

Edited August 26, 2018 by radny97

[J_Allen]

I just started loading 38 short colt - used 38/357 sizing die, and 9mm for everything else. I personally like the Mr. Bullletfeeder expander over the Dillon for your powder die in the 650. Bayou 160 gr RN and Titegroup so far. Having a chronograph is invaluable for working up loads because you’ll be outside SAAMI specs, even for minor power factor.

 

Agree TK moonclips are good, but I have found them very stiff. Another option is Revolver Supply (which has different sizes). One thing to note is that rimmed cartridges will differ in groove diameter, so you need to match up your moonclips to whatever brand of brass you are using.

 

On the topic of moonclips, you will also need tools for loading/unloading. I really like the BMT mooner, as long as the brass isn’t too tightly fit into the moonclips. I also carry a Revolver Supply pocket moon clip loader and tubular unloader.

 

Good luck (as well)!

Edited August 26, 2018 by J_Allen

[mhoosier]

Thanks for the information!  I will plan to jump right into short colts...more reading on how to do that!

[Jamese35]

I like my 929 in 9mm and I run 145 or 160 grain coated bullets and make this gun a screamer on the reloads. I use TK customs moon clips and a speed bees holster with a home made moon clip holder. I use this setup in uspsa and steel. Also at our local idpa shoot for fun. I have also shot bulls eye with it and it will put them right where they belong. I'm not trying to change your minde but it's just a option.

[missed it by that much]

I like my 929 in 9mm and I run 145 or 160 grain coated bullets and make this gun a screamer on the reloads. I use TK customs moon clips and a speed bees holster with a home made moon clip holder. I use this setup in uspsa and steel. Also at our local idpa shoot for fun. I have also shot bulls eye with it and it will put them right where they belong. I'm not trying to change your minde but it's just a option.

If you don't mind what's your load for the 145 grain bullets. And what bullets? Please and thank thanks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Jamese35]

I shoot bayout bulet's. I'm running 3.2 grains of tight group with a 1.155 oal in the 145 grain. And I run 3 grains of tightgroup on the 160 grain bullet at a 1.155 oal. That's been by load all year and has proven nice and it runs a 136 power factor out of my glock 34 and a 132 power factor out of my 929. And with that heavy of a bullet and being a round nose they funnel in the cylinder really nice. 

[firewood]

Allow me to make a clear statement of opinion on the subject.

 

If you are going to shoot USPSA revolver then you will want an 8 shot revolver such as, but not limited to a S&W 627 or 929 iron sight. This gun will also work for Steel Challenge ISR (Iron sight revolver) and ICORE Limited division. Note: as to the S&W 929 it is chambered in 9mm but don't think that you will shoot factory 9mm ammo. It's not that you cannot but as someone that has 2 of them take my word for it factory 9mm ammo is not for the medium to long haul.

 

For Steel Challenge OSR (Optical Sight Revolver) and ICORE Open division again a 627 or 929 (8 shot) with a red dot.

 

You can use a S&W 625, 686 or Colt Python (6 shot) for ICORE Limited 6 or Classic division (depending on if your using moons or speed loaders) or IDPA revolver (as long as the barrel is less than 4.2"). Forget the Mod 60 or any J-Frame except as a bug.

 

Figure out first what competition will be your main thing then the gun you want, then the ancillary items will be easier to determine.

 

Of course this is all just my opinion.

 

I don't know about the new 627 but on both of my 929s they come with  something like a 14 pound trigger. I had a revolversmith smooth out and lighten the trigger, hammer bob, extended firing pin, chamfer the charge holes, check headspace, BC gap true the yoke, F/O front sight, ball detent on the open yoke position. A few other things I just cannot remember right now. I added Hogue extended thumb latch and Big Butts and then 20K rounds to get semi-decent with the long (but now made a light 6.5 +/- pound) double action trigger. I assume that a 627 would need similar attention.

 

Having said all of this shooting revolver, while I feel is a "hands on gun" is a lot of fun and worth the trouble. I'm basically a handgun piker and it has taken me about 3 years to make A in steel challenge OSR.

Edited August 26, 2018 by firewood
add some style

[firewood]

3 hours ago, missed it by that much said:

If you don't mind what's your load for the 145 grain bullets. And what bullets? Please and thank thanks

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk
 

 

For a 929 even though it is 9mm I and many others I know that use this gun use coated Bayous in 38 which I measure at .358 on a 1" mic. Personally I use 135g RN and about 3.5g TG seated as deep as I can get them. Federal primers seated below flush, Winchester 9mm brass. I have now told you all of my secrets kindly keep it to yourself. Thanks.   38 short colts will be similar to 9mm.

 

Seriously though you can make yourself crazy trying to decide on what gun to get. If you are going to pursue SCSA, USPSA and ICORE then prolly will want at least 2 revos and maybe 3 or 4. If you stick with N frames then you can use the same belt/holster. I hardly ever shoot a 6 shot but have one competition ready. If you send your gun to TK (for example there are others) then tell them what you intend to use the gun for they will tell you what needs to be done and how big of a check to write LOL! Revolvers are fun and fun costs money.

Edited August 26, 2018 by firewood

[mhoosier]

Thanks firewood. I understood most of the mods you listed, but could you let me know more about what these 3 things do:

 

- check headspace 

- BC gap true the yolk

- ball detention in the open yolk position 

 

The rest made sense and equate to mods I’ve made on 1911s in one form or another.

 

I’m not planning to shoot any IDPA as I lost interest because of the shooting to waiting ratio at matches. I will be shooting USPSA and Steel Challenge. I’d love to try iCore, but it isn’t shot near me. 

 

I went ant today and did a side by side comparison of the 627 and 929. The 627 had a better feel / balance for me.  I would have bought it today but the trade value they offered for my CZ was laughable, mostly because they said they don’t have customers who value the custom work. So I’ll need to figure out how to sell that outright first. 

 

One additional question I might throw out there is around gripping the revolver. With my thumbs forward position, my left thumb is in front of the cylinder gap, which is bad. Where are the good resources to learn the right way to grip a revolver?

 

Thanks!

[firewood]

Some say that S&W N frames are "kit guns". What they mean by this is even Performance Center guns are not really ready for competition. Both of my 929s had to have the cylinder trued as they both to a small extent had the cylinder scraped the forcing cone which made the action drag a bit, prolly a bent or out of true yoke. So you could send them back to S&W but instead I chose to have Pinnacle High Performance (who did my action work) true the gun, bring it into spec. I told Mark what I intended to use the gun for and he made suggestions and I agreeded to them I think it was about $400.00 per gun (not really sure it is all a blur) about that and less than 2 weeks down time.  I have seen guys shoot totally stock S&Ws but not fun in my opinion.

 

There is a ball detent already on the gun to hold the cylinder in the closed position but I wanted one to help keep the cylinder fully open to help with reloads. If the cylinder isn't fully open or starts to close while you are trying to cram a moon clip with fresh ammo makes reloading  more time consuming and frustrating in my opinion. One of the reasons I believe guys that shoot 627s use short colts is it makes reloading easier and faster as 38 special is a long piece of brass. Reloading with a revolver is more time consuming than an auto loader and lots can go wrong so anything you can do to help speed up things is worth consideration.

 

As I mentioned I have (2) 929s They both have slightly different headspace so to give me reasonable chance of hearing bang instead of click I use different moons for each gun. My open uses moons that are .040 thick, my iron uses .035  I could use the .040 in my iron but they are a bit tight and drags a little as the cylinder turns.  Some people would not stand for that but I live with it. If I had the time I might experiment with different brass but since what I do now works and I'm too lazy to try a lot of things so I just live with it.

 

Moon clips are another topic in and of themselves. I don't know what thickness moons are used on a 627. 9mm is a rimless cartridge and 38 (special or long/short colt) is a rimmed case. I think those use a thinner moon clip. What caliber and brand of moons you decide on will probably influence what brand or model of moon clip holders you put on your belt and what kind of tools you get to put your ammo in and remove from the moon clips. It sounds complicated but really it's not, it's just expensive that all!

 

As far as thumb position there are different opinions, personally I fold my thumbs, my weak hand thumb is on top of my strong hand thumb and thus no where near the BC gap. Strong hand is as high on the frame as possible, the weak hand has a good strong grip. You will probably have to experiment and look at a bunch of you tubes to find what works best for you. I have small hands and really an N frame is too big for me but I suffer because I'm stubborn.

 

I want to be of help here really I do but I feel as if I'm a bit out of my comfort zone giving advice in this kind of detail. So hopefully others will chime in with some opinions as there are some top revolvers shooters on this forum. I could tell you exactly what I own and in fact my tackle isn't what is holding me back rather it's just a lack of talent. But seriously a 627 is a time tested competition revo. A 929 is also good and comes with a titanium cylinder but a 6.5" barrel some like that others don't, me I don't know any better. My opinion is that the 929 balances fine but in either case you will probably ditch the factory grips in short order and that might change the balance anyway.

 

If you have a budget of 2K and just want iron sights then you should be able to get the gun, have the action work done and buy enough moons (50 or so to start) and moon clip tools to get started. A competition belt, holster and moon clip holders for your belt will be extra. I use, like many others do, a DAA Race Master holster, a DAA belt and their magnetic moon clip holders (8 of them) and that's about $550.00 or so I'm actually trying to forget the actual cost.

Edited August 26, 2018 by firewood

[Jamese35]

1 hour ago, firewood said:

Allow me to make a clear statement of opinion on the subject.

 

If you are going to shoot USPSA revolver then you will want an 8 shot revolver such as, but not limited to a S&W 627 or 929 iron sight. This gun will also work for Steel Challenge ISR (Iron sight revolver) and ICORE Limited division. Note: as to the S&W 929 it is chambered in 9mm but don't think that you will shoot factory 9mm ammo. It's not that you cannot but as someone that has 2 of them take my word for it factory 9mm ammo is not for the medium to long haul.

 

For Steel Challenge OSR (Optical Sight Revolver) and ICORE Open division again a 627 or 929 (8 shot) with a red dot.

 

You can use a S&W 625, 686 or Colt Python (6 shot) for ICORE Limited 6 or Classic division (depending on if your using moons or speed loaders) or IDPA revolver (as long as the barrel is less than 4.2"). Forget the Mod 60 or any J-Frame except as a bug.

 

Figure out first what competition will be your main thing then the gun you want, then the ancillary items will be easier to determine.

 

Of course this is all just my opinion.

 

I don't know about the new 627 but on both of my 929s they come with  something like a 14 pound trigger. I had a revolversmith smooth out and lighten the trigger, hammer bob, extended firing pin, chamfer the charge holes, check headspace, BC gap true the yoke, F/O front sight, ball detent on the open yoke position. A few other things I just cannot remember right now. I added Hogue extended thumb latch and Big Butts and then 20K rounds to get semi-decent with the long (but now made a light 6.5 +/- pound) double action trigger. I assume that a 627 would need similar attention.

 

Having said all of this shooting revolver, while I feel is a "hands on gun" is a lot of fun and worth the trouble. I'm basically a handgun piker and it has taken me about 3 years to make A in steel challenge OSR.

I'm wundering what you mean with the 9mm factory loads? What have you experienced? Just wundering.  

 On that note my 929 came with a 9 pound trigger and after several thousand rounds and Its smoothed out really nice and is siting at just under 8 pounds and is 100% and I run cci primers. Gun is all stock but the grips and soon a FO front sight. Really intrest in what you have to say as I'm not a revolver expert lol. Thanks.

 

 As for learning to grip a revolver and reload I went to the best and watched every jerry miculek video I could.

[firewood]

You might be ok with an 8 pound trigger using factory ammo or reloads with CCI primers. I have all of mine at roughly 6.5 pounds, some revo shooters have them even lighter in the 5 pound range. The only thing that will work reliably in my revos are Federal SPP that are seated below flush or "crush seated". I'm not in any way, shape or form an expert as no one is asking me for my autograph yet but I do get to shoot with some of the revolver honchos from time to time and I can say without hesitation that a 6 or so pound DA revolver will not reliably light off anything other than Federal primers.

 

I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 CCI and S&B primers that I cannot use in my revolvers because they simply don't work. Even with that many CCIs and having about 4000 Federals I was starting to worry as Federals can be a bit difficult to locate and when the opportunity to buy 22K Federals private sale came my way I bought them without a second thought, this was about 4 weeks ago.

[Jamese35]

1 hour ago, firewood said:

You might be ok with an 8 pound trigger using factory ammo or reloads with CCI primers. I have all of mine at roughly 6.5 pounds, some revo shooters have them even lighter in the 5 pound range. The only thing that will work reliably in my revos are Federal SPP that are seated below flush or "crush seated". I'm not in any way, shape or form an expert as no one is asking me for my autograph yet but I do get to shoot with some of the revolver honchos from time to time and I can say without hesitation that a 6 or so pound DA revolver will not reliably light off anything other than Federal primers.

 

I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 40,000 CCI and S&B primers that I cannot use in my revolvers because they simply don't work. Even with that many CCIs and having about 4000 Federals I was starting to worry as Federals can be a bit difficult to locate and when the opportunity to buy 22K Federals private sale came my way I bought them without a second thought, this was about 4 weeks ago.

Ok that's what I thought you were getting at on light primer strikes on every thing but fedral. I thought about dropping more trigger pull weight but I'm running top of the class in revolver where I live and there's only 4 shooters lol. But it is really fun class to shoot. 

[firewood]

18 minutes ago, Jamese35 said:

Ok that's what I thought you were getting at on light primer strikes on every thing but fedral. I thought about dropping more trigger pull weight but I'm running top of the class in revolver where I live and there's only 4 shooters lol. But it is really fun class to shoot. 

 

James... it's hard to argue with success! If it works best to leave it alone. It seems like every one around here has a lighter/smoother trigger than I do but I haven't heard anyone say my triggers absolutely suck either. Maybe everyone is just being polite but at 6.5 pounds I sometimes think I would like a lighter trigger.

 

I agree with you revolver is a lot of fun. I went into them kicking and screaming but now most of my shooting is revolver. Almost all of my shooting is steel challenge or outlaw steel. Only a little bit of ICORE and really no USPSA. The reason I'm shooting ISR this year in SCSA is to try to get used to shooting iron sight so I can shoot some ICORE Limited and USPSA revo maybe next year. So far it's been a real struggle.

 

A few times this year I have won either a stage or had overall top OSR in smallish local Steel Matches. But that was only due to the fact that certain other shooters didn't show up. Around here in PA there quite a number of revolver shooters that can and do clean my clock with absolute ease. But still I want to do better and willing to work at it. I truly believe that it is hard work that makes the difference but having every advantage in hardware is worth having also.

Edited August 27, 2018 by firewood

[Jamese35]

There's not much for revolver shoots way up in northern michigan so when I shot revolver in uspsa it's a 1 hour and 45 minute drive and still not many shooters lol all other classes are good bit not much for a good wheel gun. We have a local guy that sets up a steel match every year running a 929 but he shoots single action. I just don't get it, wish there was more up here.

 Thanks for the info man.

[firewood]

13 minutes ago, Jamese35 said:

There's not much for revolver shoots way up in northern michigan so when I shot revolver in uspsa it's a 1 hour and 45 minute drive and still not many shooters lol all other classes are good bit not much for a good wheel gun. We have a local guy that sets up a steel match every year running a 929 but he shoots single action. I just don't get it, wish there was more up here.

 Thanks for the info man.

 

Sorry to hear you have so few revolver shooters at your matches. Most matches around here revolver is still a minority gun for sure but there are still quite a few that compete and a lot of those shooters are very good. For me it's generally a matter of trying to avoid making a total fool out of myself LOL! We are about 4 weeks away from the East Coast Steel Challenge Championship match which is local for me. A lot of really good revolver shooters are registered for that match. Also they just had the Area 8 USPSA match here and the EAST COAST ICORE match is in early November. I can shoot 2 or 3 Steel Matches or other stuff a week without traveling too far and even in local IDPA usually there are usually several revolvers. Most weeks I have to decide which match to skip for one that I rather shoot there are that many.

[mhoosier]

11 hours ago, firewood said:

Some say that S&W N frames are "kit guns". What they mean by this is even Performance Center guns are not really ready for competition. Both of my 929s had to have the cylinder trued as they both to a small extent had the cylinder scraped the forcing cone which made the action drag a bit, prolly a bent or out of true yoke. So you could send them back to S&W but instead I chose to have Pinnacle High Performance (who did my action work) true the gun, bring it into spec. I told Mark what I intended to use the gun for and he made suggestions and I agreeded to them I think it was about $400.00 per gun (not really sure it is all a blur) about that and less than 2 weeks down time.  I have seen guys shoot totally stock S&Ws but not fun in my opinion.

 

There is a ball detent already on the gun to hold the cylinder in the closed position but I wanted one to help keep the cylinder fully open to help with reloads. If the cylinder isn't fully open or starts to close while you are trying to cram a moon clip with fresh ammo makes reloading  more time consuming and frustrating in my opinion. One of the reasons I believe guys that shoot 627s use short colts is it makes reloading easier and faster as 38 special is a long piece of brass. Reloading with a revolver is more time consuming than an auto loader and lots can go wrong so anything you can do to help speed up things is worth consideration.

 

As I mentioned I have (2) 929s They both have slightly different headspace so to give me reasonable chance of hearing bang instead of click I use different moons for each gun. My open uses moons that are .040 thick, my iron uses .035  I could use the .040 in my iron but they are a bit tight and drags a little as the cylinder turns.  Some people would not stand for that but I live with it. If I had the time I might experiment with different brass but since what I do now works and I'm too lazy to try a lot of things so I just live with it.

 

Moon clips are another topic in and of themselves. I don't know what thickness moons are used on a 627. 9mm is a rimless cartridge and 38 (special or long/short colt) is a rimmed case. I think those use a thinner moon clip. What caliber and brand of moons you decide on will probably influence what brand or model of moon clip holders you put on your belt and what kind of tools you get to put your ammo in and remove from the moon clips. It sounds complicated but really it's not, it's just expensive that all!

 

As far as thumb position there are different opinions, personally I fold my thumbs, my weak hand thumb is on top of my strong hand thumb and thus no where near the BC gap. Strong hand is as high on the frame as possible, the weak hand has a good strong grip. You will probably have to experiment and look at a bunch of you tubes to find what works best for you. I have small hands and really an N frame is too big for me but I suffer because I'm stubborn.

 

I want to be of help here really I do but I feel as if I'm a bit out of my comfort zone giving advice in this kind of detail. So hopefully others will chime in with some opinions as there are some top revolvers shooters on this forum. I could tell you exactly what I own and in fact my tackle isn't what is holding me back rather it's just a lack of talent. But seriously a 627 is a time tested competition revo. A 929 is also good and comes with a titanium cylinder but a 6.5" barrel some like that others don't, me I don't know any better. My opinion is that the 929 balances fine but in either case you will probably ditch the factory grips in short order and that might change the balance anyway.

 

If you have a budget of 2K and just want iron sights then you should be able to get the gun, have the action work done and buy enough moons (50 or so to start) and moon clip tools to get started. A competition belt, holster and moon clip holders for your belt will be extra. I use, like many others do, a DAA Race Master holster, a DAA belt and their magnetic moon clip holders (8 of them) and that's about $550.00 or so I'm actually trying to forget the actual cost.

Great information, thanks again!