Bullet creep with 9mm Charter Arms Pitbull snubbie

[nevadabob]

I'm a plinker loading A#5 6.1 grains Eggleston 115 cnbb (0.357) and 7625 4.2 grains Darda's 124 non-shouldered lrn (0.357) in range brass. Using not enough crimp, the bullets walk/creep and some have even exited the casing while in the cylinder. With max crimp I get bullet tumble/keyholing and even a slight bit of walking (several thousandths of an inch, but usually less than 10). My starting COL is around 1.100. I use the Lee carbide dies, including the FCD, but have replaced the decapper/sizing die with a EGW undersize die (which is made by Lee for EGW).

 

My thoughts at this point of frustration: Back off on the max crimp to alleviate tumble, lessen the COL a bit to compensate for walking and just "put up" with some bullet creep and call it a day. But I'm open to suggestions on how to get this right.

[radny97]

Lee FCD is a roll crimp. This used on bullets with a cannelure.  I would try a taper crimp die first. Or you could try some bullets with a cannelure. 

Edited June 6, 2018 by radny97

[Miranda]

9mm,  a cylinder, 357 bullets,  and bullets creeping out...

 

my first thought was that your bullets are being swaged. 

my next thought was you are making 38 ammo anyway.

use a lee 38 powder funnel to open up the case a bit more

to avoid having the bullets swaged as they are being pressed into the case.

 

9mm dies are expecting copper jackets so the powder funnel is tight.

so you have to shoot hard lead boolits or go to the 38 funnels.

 

last.  for 9mm and fat bullets (.357 is headed that way)  use the lee taper crimp

the FCD will also swage lead bullets.

 

miranda

 

[nevadabob]

Thanks for the responses.

radny97...Lee literature describes the FCD as a taper crimp.

 

Miranda..."so you have to shoot hard lead boolits" caught my eye. I shoot typical #15 on the hardness scale. I see where Rimrock has #22's available. Is this what you're referring to?

[Miranda]

 

From my reading and some testing I agree with this conclusion...

a 9mm case is tough enough to swage any lead bullet.

 

your hardness is a little higher than I cast and load. 

 

all that said is kinda moot once we move to the FCD.

I like this die for jacketed bullets and it is not a good idea to use it on lead bullets.

all by itself it will swage lead bullets.

 

I tested this by making my fat bullets and FCDing the round...

I turned it bullet down and the bullet fell out...

 

Lee has another die called the taper crimp  it does not size to the bottom of the case.

 

the 38 crimp I got definitely rolled the crimp in

 

so lead bullets in 9mm are better using 38 funnel and just the taper not factory crimp.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hi-Power Jack]

I used to crimp (roll crimp) bullets for .38 and .41 - without a cannelure.

 

Worked fine - no creep and fine accuracy    

 

I wonder if there is a  happy medium  between too little and too much crimp 

that might keep the bullets in place, and land them in the right spot ?

[nevadabob]

Hi-Power Jack...I've been making test loads with varying degrees of crimp. That sweet spot is what I'm after.

[Hi-Power Jack]

When I set the crimp for 9mm on my SDB, I added crimp until the rounds

would PLUNK into my chamber.  

 

When they PLUNKED, I was finished.

 

Loaded 20 rounds - fired them  - no problem.

 

Left the crimp there for the next 20 years - still have the same crimp.

 

If they had plunked, but were not accurate, I'd have pulled a bullet and if I saw

marks on the bullet, I'd have backed off on the crimp a bit, and tried the

Plunk Test again.

 

Would just keep working the crimp die adjustment until :

1.  the cartridges fed properly,  

and

2.  the cartridges were accurate.     

[IDescribe]

Okay... 

 

This is a 9mm gun with 9mm cases.  You want 9mm dies. 

 

Seating lead bullets into cases will not swage the bullets.  That isn't your problem, but other swaging likely is:

 

FCD is a taper crimp for the crimp itself.  But it is more than that.  It "sizes" all the way down the case.   It WILL swage down bullets, lead and plated. With a tougher jacketed bullet sized .355, it's not an issue.   With lead and plated bullets, it's often a problem, and the softer the bullet, and the more you try to crimp, the worse it gets. 

 

There is a property of metal called "spring back" that is exactly what it sounds like. You've seen it thousands of times - you bend metal, and it wants to spring back to its original shape.   You bend it far enough, and it won't spring back all the way, but will spring back some or most of the way, with how much varying from metal to metal and thickness to thickness.  Lead, for example, is soft and has effectively no spring back at all, it keeps whatever shape you form it to.  But the metal of your case springs back. 

 

So my suspicion is that when you are using your FCD and sizing all the way down the case that you are compressing/swaging the bullet down, and while the bullet doesn't spring back out at all, the case springs back just a little, not enough to see separation between inner case and bullet, but the spring back is happening, and it reduces neck tension. 

 

It is inarguable that this is happening.  This is physics.  It's happening.  Whether or not it's the root problem might be argued, but make no mistake - - it's happening.

 

This isn't an issue with autoloaders because bullets don't creep forward with autoloaders, but they do with revolvers. I strongly suspect you're reducing neck tension with the FCD.  The fact that you're tumbling is also an indicator that you're getting the all too common FCD swaging.  It causes tumbling. That happens to people regularly.

 

Get a regular taper crimp die.  The Lee FCD has a narrow field of use, and I'd recommend you leave it on the shelf for most loading. 

 

Even with a regular taper crimping, overcrimping can reduce neck tension as the case wall below the mouth wabts to bow outward as the case mouth is turned inward.  This is why we always always say that with taper crimp, just remove the bell to flush.  I would advise you set your crimp die (a regular one, not the FCD) to leave the case mouth .378 or .379 and be done with it.  Taper crimp does NOT increase neck tension. The fact that the inner diameter of the case is smaller than the bullet before seating is what creates neck tension. Period. 

 

Even if the FCD turns out not to be the only contributing ssue, it's an issue you want to correct.  Make it your first step.  I suspect your issues will go away. 

 

Good luck. And let us know. 

[nevadabob]

Good stuff!

[Miranda]

Hi IDescribe,

we both agree the FCD is the cause of the bullets creeping out.

that said, here is a consideration.

it is a small problem in terms of size and very important to prevent leading the barrel.
9mm cases will swage lead bullets if you use the lee 9mm powder funnel.
as part of building your ammo, if you just taper crimp to get the case mouth to less than the .380 needed to fit,
the bullets will stay seated and not move.

 

what I did in my testing was to find out if I was creating other problems.
my bullets were sized to .357 using a lee sizing die.

what I found when I seated them without crimp and after 'the hammer' was applied...
 the section where the bullets were in the case were swaged (you can use another word) to between .3560 and .3565
with mosting I measured  nearer the .3650 side...
all were smaller.

With the lee 38 powder funnel most bullets stayed near the .357 I wanted.  yeaaaaaay!

 

and then I discovered what the FCD does....

 

Lead and 9mm pretty much needs a barrel that is .355 
If you want lead bullets and to use 9mm dies.
AND
want to avoid lining your barrel with lead streaks.

miranda
 

Edited June 7, 2018 by Miranda
clarify which funnels

[nevadabob]

Miranda...What is the Lee powder funnel?

[Miranda]

when you buy a lee deluxe 4 die set for 9mm

 

Set includes: 

* Carbide Factory Crimp Die
* Powder Through Expanding Die
* Bullet Seat & Feed Die
* Carbide Sizing Die

 

the second die--> Powder Through Expanding Die  

is what I call a funnel.

the die funnels powder into the case.

the insert also expands the case where the bullet will seat.

 

I ended up making a couple of inserts to that die

to get my fat bullets to seat properly.

I also use FC cases because they are the thinnest at the case mouth.

 

they seem to work...

 

[Livin_cincy]

I have pondered the LEE FCD.  I have never had an issue.  It is set up to make the OD from the Bullet to the bottom of the case SAMMI spec.  So the OD of the brass & exposed Bullet will end up the same if a Bullet is over sized.  The Bullet inside the case will be reduced by to case thickness. 

 

The goal is to have 100% chambering by using an FCD.  It does that.  So it makes handloads  as reliable as Factory.

 

A soft lead Bullet will be “swaged” to your Guns chamber/ Cylinder.  So it was not an issue in the days of old six guns and early autos.  

 

I think it all all comes down to properly adjusting the die.   This can be elusive.  On a Progressive Press getting all of the Dies to work together is an issue for some.  

 

With that said, I adjust the FCD for each bulllet I shoot.

 

Lee makes a universal case expander.  Many people use a NOE plug in the LEE die when using lead boolits. I am thinking about going this route during case prep. 

 

 

[Miranda]

as long as we are talking about the 9mm FCD and only the 9mm FCD...

 

I have tried a lot of things to avoid it swaging lead bullets...

I gave up when I knew it gave me a lot of resistance as the FCD mouth went over the bullet.

 

... didn't finish the stroke, turned over the case and dropped the bullet out.

 

do not mistake this part -->  I like the FCD.

It is not the die to use if you are running fat lead bullets in 9mm.

 

miranda