Simpleton Questions From Ipsc Only Shooter

[jkushner1]

I mainly shoot IPSC and Steel, 1 steel match a month and 2-3 (usually three IPSC matches per month). Anyway, to keep fresh, I have been shooting an IDPA style weeknight indoor two stage match at a local range. I shot IDPA in the very beginning but that was a while back, anyway, I have some basic questions:

1. IPSC has taught me to deeply evaluate an upcoming stage, ie: mag chage points, target order, movement, target stategy and I'm always aware of round count. This mind set seems to cause problems in IDPA, I know the basics with regard to the rules, etc. But should I just shoot to slide lock and then reload and go - that seems that it might be the way for me to go - thoughts ?.

2. Please confirm: a. Is there is a penalty for mag changes on the move ?; b. Is there is a procedural for releasing an empty mag if the slide is forward, even though its empty and the only time I can drop an empty mag is at slide lock ?.

3. I understand slicing the pie, tactical order with targets at different distances from me; cover must be 50% or more - what else I am forgetting here ?

4. Mag change with retention allows me to remove a mag, go to my belt with that hand then pocket that ejected mag and get a fresh one; Tactical reload is where I bring a fresh mag up from the belt to the gun then make the change retaining the ejected mag back down to a pocket ?.

5. In a very simple way, how is IDPA scored ?.

With an IPSC dominated mind, I am getting frustrated at all the procedurals and mistakes I'm making.

TY

Jon

[Ben Stoeger]

Jon,

In IDPA you must:

Reload Behind available cover

Retain Magazines ejected from the gun if the gun has any rounds in it

Your definition of cover is close. In IDPA 100% of your lower body must be behind cover. 50% of your upper A zone must also be behind cover.

IDPA is scored with a Time added system. Your score = Time + .5 Seconds for each point down + Additional time for penaltys (no shoot hits, etc..)

As far as breaking a stage down.. It really depends. If you go to a stage and the SO says, all reloads from slide lock, reload as neccecary. Then sometimes its helpful to look ahead in the stage and gauge where your gun will run dry.

If a retention reload is specified, they will tell you where you have to do it. You don't usually have much choice in the matter.

IDPA.com has the rulebook, if your interested

[bruce282]

Jon,

I shoot both and sometimes it's easy to get them mixed up. I noticed you are shooting inside. In our indoor matches here there's not a lot of room for things like cover etc, if and when you shoot IDPA outside that most likely will change.

As to you questions:

1. For better or worse, IDPA is a lot more scripted than IPSC. Normally the COF will tell you in what order to engage the targets including "in any order". If there is a mandatory reload you will be told where to reload, "engage T1 thru T3 with 2 rounds each, perform a mandatory reload, and re-engage T1 thru T3 with 2 rounds each." Unless you're shooting CDP (.45acp) or one of the 2 wheelgun classes, you have to load 11 rounds, so in the string above you would have to do a "Tactical Load" (new rule book verbage), you may either pull the new mag first, or drop the one in the gun first, but in either case you must save the partial magazine, I just shove it in my front pants pocket. If there are no mandatory reloads, and you are not shooting from cover, most folks shoot to slide lock, it's faster than doing a Tac-Load.

2. Not per se, but if there is cover you have to use it when reloading. Let's say you start on the right side of the range and have to engage 3 target with 2 to the body and 1 to the head, then you move to the left side of the range to engage 6 targets from behind a wall (slicing the pie). Since this is a Vickers (Comstock) stage and you determine that you missed the last head shot, you shoot another round at the last target. Now you have an empty magazine but a round in the chamber. If you were dump the mag and reload, you most likely would get 2 proceduals, one for reloading in the open, and one for dropping the mag. You need to run to other side behind the wall before reloading (and keeping the empty magazine). If there was no cover at the second shooting position, think Box B, you would be allowed to reload while moving, again keeping the empty magazine.

3. Ben covered "cover" really well, if the SO yells "Cover", you need to get more behind what ever the cover is.

4. I do believe the latest version of the rule states that the tac-load and reload-with-retention are interchangable, you can do either one.

5. On an IDPA target there are 3 possible scores, down 0, down -1 and down -3. Each point down = .5 seconds. There is also the Mike, and the FTN (failure to neutralize) which IIRC means you have to have at least 1 (down -1) or better hit on each target. Each FTN is 5 seconds, but just like misses in IPSC on a disappearing target, there is no FTN on disappering targets or Limited Vickers (Virginia) stages.

So you score is raw time plus .5 per point down, plus any FTN or procedurals.

Hope this helps, I think everything I said is correct, if not someone who is better versed in the rules will let both of us know.

Bruce

[bpgorbe]

1. IPSC has taught me to deeply evaluate an upcoming stage, ie: mag chage points, target order, movement,  target stategy and I'm always aware of round count. This mind set seems to cause problems in IDPA, I know the basics with regard to the rules, etc. But should I just shoot to slide lock and then reload and go - that seems that it might be the way for me to go - thoughts ?.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You need to change your planning a little. While IDPA courses are more scripted, there are plenty of small details you can plan that shave off a couple of tenths here and there. It adds up. Plan your shots (not just targets) and figure out where you will go to slide lock. Don't let slide lock suprise you. Is it better to shoot from the left or right side of a barricade? Is there an advantage to switching sides on a barricade during a reload? If two-to-the-body-one-to-the-head is required, is it better to shoot all bodies first, then heads? And remember, all IDPA stages are 2 hit factor stages!

-- Brian G

[pisgahrifle]

I did IDPA for a good bit. I haven't shot it in almost a year know, but I did right fair when I was at it. Here's the bit of info and advice I'll throw you.

Here goes:

1. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I fully understand wanting to work out your stages. This is the cognitive side of the game that makes IPSC so challenging. The thing about IDPA stages is that they tend to take the cerebral out of the issue as much as possible- to level the playing field, I s'pose. The best way to get around this attitude is to still work the stage out in your head ahead of time, just do it as best you can within the parameters given you. For instance: Let's say you had to engage a three target array in some tactical manner and then advance to another barricade and do another two and a steel. You're shooting CDP. If you were shooting SSD, you'd shoot the first three, dump the mag, reload and go on, right? IDPA will give you 3 for leaving your loaded mag. If they think you did it on purpose, you'll get a 20 for "failure to do right." So what do you do? All a "reload with retention" is is a speed reload where you hang on to the old magazine, that's all. So after you engage your first array, do this "reload with retention" and you've got enough gas to finish the stage. You don't get caught out in the open and get a cover call, and you'll be suprised how fast that retention reload can be when you do it a lot. Practice with a vest when you dryfire. Choose a vest with large pockets, ones that can preferably be propped open with their flap. Put your charging magazine in it to open it up a bit more and give it some weight- that will help you a bit in slinging it out of the way to get your next magazine. Give a thought to putting some weight in the other side, too, for the same reason.

2. A. No- so long as your movement is covered. If you don't see any robot-heads, you should be kosher. B. Yes. If you're slide is down with a round in the pipe, you drop an empty and leave it, then they'll treat it like a full magazine. And no, it doesn't make any sense. When I first started shooting IDPA, I'd go into fits when I saw stages. I thought this was supposed to be real-world stuff, and I found out quickly it wasn't. I had taken the "principles" section of the rulebook to heart. One day I was practicing with a great old guy at the local club when the subject of stages came up. He told me a golden rule about shooting IDPA that I swear did more to making me a winning shooter than anything else- "Don't try to make sense of it. Not much logical about it. Just shoot it as fast and as smart as you can, within the rules, and win. Leave your defensive shooting in the truck, but make sure you don't forget to put it back on again when you leave." It's a competition; treat it as such and you'll win.

3. Sigh. Regardless of what the book says, cover can get mighty interpretive at times. Stay on your RO's friendly side and don't get to far from cover and you'll be fine. Try to really hug your barricades and corners and you shoudln't give them any room to gig you.

4. You are correct. The new book does say that the terms are interchangeable, but calling a tac-load a retention load, or vice versa, is like calling a polish sausage a hot dog, or vice versa. You (unless specified, I suppose) can do either one where one or the other is called for. Once again, I'd recommend just getting used to doing the retention load and load that way unless told otherwise. Just make sure you get your mind back right when you go shoot an IPSC match so you don't hang on to that partial!

5.

On an IDPA target there are 3 possible scores, down 0, down -1 and down -3. Each point down = .5 seconds. There is also the Mike, and the FTN (failure to neutralize) which IIRC means you have to have at least 1 (down -1) or better hit on each target. Each FTN is 5 seconds, but just like misses in IPSC on a disappearing target, there is no FTN on disappering targets or Limited Vickers (Virginia) stages.

So you score is raw time plus .5 per point down, plus any FTN or procedurals.

Bruce282 pretty much hit it right square on the nose. IDPA's scoring system really is the best thing about the sport. No long division, ratios or percentages (note that I did not, in fact, do well in math in any school, any where). You can pretty much look at the timer and targets and know your score. Good stuff.

Anyway, hope this helps.

-PAB

[Genghis]

I guess our local RO's have applied a little common sense here. In our last match we had a stage which began with the shooter loading six, then engaging three very close targets while moving to cover. I asked the rather obvious question of whether we were allowed to begin our reload after the sixth shot but before actually reaching the cover. His response - "No problem, as long as you don't stop to reload."

Applying the "reload behind cover" rule strictly here would have actually been counterproductive, resulting in a slower reload and a slower engagement of the remaining targets.

[kdmoore]

Unless you're shooting CDP (.45acp) or one of the 2 wheelgun classes, you have to load 11 rounds,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Probably true 99% of the time. The way I would word it is ...." other than CDP and revolvers, you are limited to loading 10 +1 ... " Terminology usually requires you to load to "division capacity"

IOW, SSP and ESP load to the minimum of A. 10 rounds +1 or B. pistol capacity +1

heheheheh is this any clearer?

[Jane]

4.  You are correct.  The new book does say that the terms are interchangeable, but calling a tac-load a retention load, or vice versa, is like calling a polish sausage a hot dog, or vice versa. 

-PAB

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just in fairness to the oft-maligned rulebook... it says the reloads are interchangeable, not the terms... and goes on to explain the terms.

So perhaps your analogy might be more accurately phrased - if the menu specifies a sandwich containing tubular deli products, you may serve the customer either a hot dog or a polish sausage

[Clay1]

Cute Jane, but I will take a Brat here in Wisconsin over a hotdog anyday.

On loading to division max or 10+1 there are times that they will have you load less rounds so that you slide lock at a particular point in a string of fire. I always thought it was a procedural to load less than the 10+1 and most of the time it is, but there are courses of fire that are legal that specify only 6 rounds in the gun so it isn't a 100% rule all of the time. If there are no instructions to the contrary you load 10+1 or to capacity. Now are you really confused?

I'm a cross over shooter too who started in IDPA and have shot mostly USPSA for the last couple of months. Next weekend is our State IDPA shoot and I just know that I will drop a mag on the ground. I know that I should not even think those thoughts, but dropping that mag is instinctual at this point in my shooting. I shoot an USPSA match tomorrow and then all week I will be practicing my reloads with retention.

Since the RWR and the tac reload are interchanable there is absolutely no need ever to do a tac reload. In USPSA terms it would be like saying that you can reload from slide lock or do a speed reload. Everyone knows that if you reload from slide lock are you throwing time out the window. It is the same for the tac load. It takes longer and there is no reason to do it ever. IDPA calls it an emergency reload (slidelock) and reload with retention are the only two to practice. A speed reload (dropping a mag with any rounds in the gun) is illegal. You should know what a tact load is, but there is no need to practice or ever do one.

Rick

[Ben Stoeger]

  I always thought it was a procedural to load less than the 10+1 and most of the time it is

Since the RWR and the tac reload are interchanable there is absolutely no need ever to do a tac reload.  You should know what a tact load is, but there is no need to practice or ever do one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A couple things on this:

I think if someone accidentaly downloads (less than full capacity) it would be a procedural penalty. If they did it intentionally, that would be an FTDR.

In certain situations, many shooters think a TAC load has some advantages. If you need to move after reloading, a TAC load will sometimes be faster, as you can stow the mag on the run. I don't find this to be the case for me, becuase I have a double stack gun. I just fumble to often. If i shot a single stack though, it may be worth a shot.

YMMV

Later,

Ben

[Clay1]

Ben, it is a procedural to download on 99% of the COFs out there. I know you have shot the classifier and there are strings of fire in the classifier that you must download your mag to shoot correctly. This is what I am speaking to. Only less than 10+1 where the COF demands it. I always thought it was a procedural no matter what and it isn't in this case it's required.

In Matt Burkett DVD on IDPA he is the one that recomended never doing a tac reload. When you put the three types on a timer which I have done, the fastest to slowest in IDPA is emergency, the RWR then TAC reload. It's Matt's idea to never to a tac reload and I agree with him 100%. A tac reload is a bobble waiting to happen in my opinion. Maybe you master class guys can do that stuff really fast but for most of us it isn't a good idea.

Here's one for you that should be easy to do and I know that you always dry fire. Put two IPSC style boxes up 15' apart. At the buzzer shoot one round and do a RWR and then move to the next box and fire one round. In the second senario shoot one at the buzzer and do a Tac reload and fire a round when you hit the second box. Let me know which you find faster. I'll try to do the same but since I don't practice tac reloads it won't be as good of a test as if it was from someone that is good at both types of reloads. Would seriously like to know times for both. Thanks Ben.

[GRD]

Applying the "reload behind cover" rule strictly here would have actually been counterproductive, resulting in a slower reload and a slower engagement of the remaining targets.

It almost always will be slower (I can't think of any situation where it would be faster to wait until you were behind cover to drop the empty mag...), but the rules are clear: you can't even drop the old mag until you are behind cover. The reasoning for it has nothing to do with what's faster, for what that's worth.

I don't like it, but there it is.

My understanding of the 'downloaded' mags is that in a Limited Vickers standard exercise-type stage you can be told exactly what to load. In a Vickers count scenario stage, you must start at division capacity.

Tac-loads are usually slower for most people. They're also more fumble prone. Where a tac-load beats a RWR is when you are reloading before moving out from cover. You are considered loaded when the gun is full and the slide is forward, and according to the rules that's the point at which you can break cover and boogie to your next position. You reach that point more quickly with the tac-load...so you can be moving while you are stowing your partial mag.

b. Is there is a procedural for releasing an empty mag if the slide is forward, even though its empty and the only time I can drop an empty mag is at slide lock ?.

The chamber of the gun has to be empty, technically. So if you have a gun that doesn't lock back (as many IPSC shooters do), after the mag change, when you rack that slide the SO is watching to see if a round pops out. If it does, you get the procedural...even though the magazine might have been empty. Again, bizarre but there it is. So it's not really about the slide being locked back, it's about the gun being completely dry.

I switch back and forth all the time too, and I find myself doing speed reloads when the opportunity presents itself on the IDPA course, which is bad and I get dinged for it. What I try to tell myself, over and over, is just shoot to slide lock. It's usually faster than trying to do RWR's or tacloads unless you have a really premium opportunity. Just hauling ass to the next position (who is it that said "just get to the shooting"? ) and then slam another one in when it runs dry is almost always going to beat slowing down your run and messing with the magazines on a RWR or something.

Just get the lead out and have a real fast slide-lock reload and you'll be all over it.

[Ben Stoeger]

Rick,

For the Downloading thing, I was speaking about COF's that don't specifically instruct it. If you download to gain competitive advantage when the COF doesn't specify, It is my interpritation of the rules that you would get an FTDR.

From the IDPA rulebook, one thing that constitutes an FTDR

"Purposely committing a procedural error because your score will be better"

Please note that if it is an accident, that is a totally different story.

As for the TAC vs RWR thing, I agree with you and Burkett. I don't think the TAC is a good idea. However, I will try the drill you suggested and report my results on here in a little bit.

Later

[Ben Stoeger]

Ok here are the results, Broken down by type of reload and direction of movement.

Movement TAC RWR

Foreward 4.1 4.8

Backward 4.6 5.1

Lat Left 4.0 4.5

Lat Right 3.8 4.4

Ok boxes were 13 feet apart.

On the foreward and backward movement strings there was a 20 yard (simulated) shot and a 6 yard (simulated) shot. On the backward string the near target was shot first, and the foreward movement was opposite.

Both targets on lateral movement were 5 yards (simulated). I fired two shots per target, then reloaded and moved.

The TAC load was more fumble prone than RWR.

One other note, I have not practiced "Tac" loading NEAR as much as RWR, but I am proficient (not anything special) in the technique.

Hope this helps,

Ben

EDIT:

I cant get the damn spacing to work right on the above stats... sorry

[Clay1]

Great stuff Ben. So you were right. Even though you admitted that the tac reload is more fumble prone and that you didn't practice them as much you found it consistantly faster while moving. Point well taken. I'm not too proud to admit that I was wrong. Thanks for being a sport and trying it out me.

So to recap the time savings is that once you stuff the mag in you can haul rear right away. In a situation of just standing shooting one shot and doing the reload the Tac load is still slower.

In the middle of my reply I set up two boxes and did the same excercise. The boxes were only about 12 feet apart and I worked off of a par time which took some experiemtation with to get right. I started with the gun up and ready. At the buzzer I dry fired one round and stowed the mag and reloaded like a regular RWR and then moved and hit the next box and pressed the trigger. For my set up doing it my way it was around 4.0 secs. For me the tac load was about .1 or .2 faster, but remember I never do this type of reload. Even though it was faster by a small margin over this very limited space that I was playing it (I feel sweat running down my back as I am typing) I had a couple that I totally botched this way (TAC). I can see if you practiced it and the opportunity arose for this exact application that you could save some time and some time is all that it takes once in a while. Thanks again Ben.

[Ben Stoeger]

As I said before, If I shot a single stack, or was just plain better, I would probobly go witch TAC loads in some match situations.

Later

Ben

[Gun Geek]

With an IPSC dominated mind, I am getting frustrated at all the procedurals and mistakes I'm making.

My 2 cents on this thing-

You guys are covering the rules well, so let's talk about why the rules are what they are. From my observation of IPSC/USPSA shooters crossing to IDPA, they miss the basic intent. Their mindset (because it is the right one in IPSC) is faster is better.

The sport is about practicing skills and techniques required for self defense with a pistol. The fastest way to engage a CoF will not necessarily be the safest/most likely to leave you as the last man standing. The rules are there to reward/penalize the shooter for doing things per the founder's view of self defense. Not everyone shares the same perspective, so there are disagreements, but the logic is pretty clear. Safety and avoiding an equipment race (i.e force everyone to have hi-cap mags or a gun that can handle hicaps) are the other reason for the rules. This usually frosts IPSC shooters (especially if they shoot open), but it is a key principle of the sport. The idea is to level the playing field as much as is reasonable so that scores are not tied to $$ spent on equipment.

On the downloading - It is accepted practice for a stage designer to break certian "rules" to create a particular condition. A prime example is requiring downloaded a downloaded mag to force a slide lock at a praticular point. The idea is that the stage tests a particular gun handling or decision making skill. Remember that the classifier actually does this. Also in the classifier I routinely use (and as an SO encourage other competitors) high-cap mags stuffed full. It is limited vickers, and there is absolutely no advantage to the shooter to have more rounds. In fact it makes the classifer much faster if you don't have to keep stuffing mags. This is technically against the rules, but it is practical, and we don't penalize a shooter who doesn't have high caps. All my mags are high cap glock mags loaded to 10 or 11 rds.

If a competitor did purposefully download (or upload) a mag to gain an advantage, I would asses a FTDR. How do I know it was purposeful? If they got an advantage - better place to reload, etc.

Keep that "defensive" perspective in mind and the IDPA rules make decent sense. you don't have to agree, but you'll understand.

Hope this helps.

[Clay1]

Just remember IDPA is still a shooting game, if you really want to study tactics your time is better spent doing that. It's a competition with different rules and not all of them make sense nor do they need to - these are just the rules of this game. Have fun shooting it and enjoy.

[Ted Murphy]

I guess our local RO's have applied a little common sense here. In our last match we had a stage which began with the shooter loading six, then engaging three very close targets while moving to cover. I asked the rather obvious question of whether we were allowed to begin our reload after the sixth shot but before actually reaching the cover. His response - "No problem, as long as you don't stop to reload."

Applying the "reload behind cover" rule strictly here would have actually been counterproductive, resulting in a slower reload and a slower engagement of the remaining targets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem with doing that is when shooters from that club go to a big match and are used to the local club bending the rules. They leave with a procedural or two and loose their chance of finishing well at the match.

I see it now and then at nats, "But... But... that's how we do it at our local club!!!" so you pull out the rule book and show them where the applicable rule can be found. They look at the rule book a bit, blink, and usually say something mean about their local MD's/SO's.

Few people win when local clubs bend the rules like that.

Ted

[Genghis]

Ted -

In any shooting game there will be examples of where the rules encourage you to do things that would be counterproductive in the real world. Obvious examples include ignoring cover in USPSA, and downloading to 10+1 in IDPA. When you run the gun dry while you're in the open, it makes no tactical sense to wait to reload until you're behind cover. "In the real world" doing so would give the BG's time to close the distance or take careful aim or do other things that hurt you. So in this situation faster is better, and reloading on the run is faster. If you slowed down or stopped it would be a different story.

[Mark Perez]

Ted -

In any shooting game there will be examples of where the rules encourage you to do things that would be counterproductive in the real world. Obvious examples include ignoring cover in USPSA, and downloading to 10+1 in IDPA. When you run the gun dry while you're in the open, it makes no tactical sense to wait to reload until you're behind cover. "In the real world" doing so would give the BG's time to close the distance or take careful aim or do other things that hurt you. So in this situation faster is better, and reloading on the run is faster. If you slowed down or stopped it would be a different story.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's all well and good - but IDPA isn't the real world.

And while you can do what you describe ( "reloading on the run" ) it will earn you a PE.

[simonsay]

Ted -

"In the real world" ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In the IDPA world however, if you allowed reloads while moving to cover, every gamer would do a slide lock reload and finish off the rest of the bad guys while using the tactical snail pace baby step method. Hard one to call. Minimize the judgement calls and stress cover is how it worked out. right or wrong I would like it better if you could reload, or start a reload in the open but had to shoot from cover and couldn't leave cover with an empty gun.

[Ted Murphy]

As someone who has had more Tactical Training than some, and less than others, I can say that IDPA is not to be compared with the real world. Not by a long shot.

What I find amusing is when people want to be "tactical" but are still competitive enough at heart that they are mad they get a procedural or two for being more real world. I respect guys who shoot it how they think it should be shot and damn

the procedurals. I really respect the few who shoot that way and keep their opinons to themselves so others in their squad can get what they want out of the sport and have fun as well.

FWIW, none of th sports out there that allege to be practical (IDPA, USPSA, TSA, IDSA) address the two gun issue well (which is smart from a safety standpoint) but I consider that something that is highly real world relevant. And frankly, if I approached IDPA as a real world event I'd be DQ'ed on many stages for a NY reload, or 2 guns in a "T" intersection, etc.

IDPA is just a game. We do all the neato chimpunk tactical stuff at our range too, with life like targets, and simunitions, and other cool chest thumping activities. But when we do IDPA we do IDPA, not our version of how we wish it to be. Trying to meld the two does not work well, and as I mentioned above, punishes the people who are trying to be competitive when they shoot mainstream matches that don't use the "house rules".

Ted

[jkelly]

Regardless of whether you follow the complete IDPA rulebook or filter out rules considered weak or poorly written, you need to know the rules.

A shooter rationalizing an error by saying, "That's how we do it at my club" is really saying, "I haven't bothered to learn the rules". That shooter is not likely to be near the top of the finishers anyway and I think that holds true for most of us.

If you know the rules you won't get dinged. If you don't know the rules then you will be dinged.

Respectfully,

jkelly