SAiga Shotguns

[Guest bulm5]

How reliable are they?????

[Cloudy Overhead]

Locally we have one guy using one. It is reliable. He had a few problems when he cut a magazine, put a spacer in and rejoined it to get extra rounds, but he sorted it out.

[Bronco]

 I tried one at our last match and took second with it, they function fine with light or heavy loads.  There are several mods to make before it could be used  for a major match,  The first is the bolt doesn't lock back on the last round or at all for that matter.  Also at a disadvantage with only 6 rounds.  Reloads are fast but often.  It is also my understanding that per BATF it is illegal to have a mag that holds more than 5 rounds in a shotgun.  I have not read this for myself but trust the person who looked it up.  Slugs shot with the one I used were 3" groups at 30yds.  

[Mickster]

There was a fellow on my squad who used one at the last NC Tac 3-gun. He spoke very highly of the setup. From watching, it was reliable and pretty quick on the mag change and handled well.

The downside was a couple times after running it dry, did the mag change a lot faster than I could load 5 rounds into my 1100, and dropped the hammer on an empty chamber cause he forgot to rack it (bolt doesn't lock back). Also, he couldn't just "top it off" between targets. It was a complete mag change or nothing.

[BPiatt]

I have been considering using a Saiga  but haven't had time to run it thru it's paces.  The bolt will lock back, if you hold up a small lever just ahead of the trigger.  You can reach it with your trigger finger while racking the action.  Having the action open makes loading much easier.  I'm planning on making some 10 round magazines, but need to research the law better.  Here's a copy of NJ's Assault Weapons Law, direct from the NJ Attny General's website.  A search on Federal law revealed the same info.

"C. a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least 2 of the following:

a folding or telescoping stock;

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

an ability to accept a detachable magazine. "

[Patrick Sweeney]

So, you build a shotgun that doesn't have a pistol grip, and you can use detachable magazines.  But, how to make hi-caps without running afoul of the law?

Time to vote the bastards out.  (Oops, that slipped out.)

The real question is, is it an advantage?  How much and under what circumstances?

[jhgtyre]

Wouldn't any detachable magazine be subject to the 10 round rule?  If so 10 rounds of 12 or 20 gauge in one reload is pretty damn good.  5 rounds per reload is another story.

-jhgtyre

[BPiatt]

both of you are correct...

The guns are fairly cheap.   FFL holder can get them for $350 or so.

The Saiga comes from the factory with a straight stocked w/o a pistol grip.  5 round mags can be made into 10 rounders legally.  The factory magazines are thick plastic so a little precision cutting and some type of glue and we're all set.  Make some type of mag well, because loading is a little tricky, especially with the action closed.  What little rounds I have thru it tells me it kicks pretty hard.  It has only two gas adjustment settings but some 'gun plumbing' may fix that.  The gun is light and comes with a plastic stock.  I'm sure two recoil reducers in the stock would be no problem.  As far as OPEN IPSC, you can put a big Al Grecco Comp on the barrel.  I know those comps work they are just heavy on a standard gun.   Remember, you can cut the barrel to the minimum and the gun will still be short because it won't have the ten round mag tube.

I'd hate to put a lot of time and effort into the gun and have the action not hold up.   Theoretically, it sure sounds tempting.    

BP

[BPiatt]

both of you are correct...

The Saiga comes straight stocked w/o a pistol grip.

5 round mags can be made into 10 rounders legally.

The factory magazines are thick plastic so a little precision cutting and some type of glue and we're all set.

What little rounds I have thru it tells me it kicks pretty hard.  It has only two gas adjustment settings but some 'gun plumbing' may fix that.  The gun is light and comes with a plastic stock.  I'm sure two recoil reducers in the stock would be no problem.  As far as OPEN IPSC, you can put a big Al Grecco Comp on the barrel.  Remember, you can cut the barrel to the minimum and the gun will still be short because it won't have the ten round mag tube.  It sure sounds tempting to put some effort into it.    

[Bronco]

There are several configurations of this gun, some will hold the bolt back ( mine will not ) one has different chokes, fixed sights, adjustable sights,  it seems you can't get one with all the options you'd like.  Guess the commie mentality is still alive, you can have it any way you want it as long as its the way we make it.

[EvilPJ]

Are you guys sure about the legal stuff with mags that hold more than 5 rounds?

In my opinion they are legal to LEO only. Here is the same info that BPiatt found from ATF's website (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/legal/semi.htm):

(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

So Saiga with 10 round mag would satisfy rules #3 and #4 which totals 2 even without the evil pistol grip.

=> Assault Weapon

Russians have made 10 round metal mags for 12 g. Saiga. They don't feed well and are clumsy. They also have 8 round plastic mags which are about the same size than normal 7.62x39 AK mags. I have couple of pictures of these 8-rounders if someone is interested.

I have used my Saiga with two 5 round mags clamped together. I modified Fal/G3/M14 mag clamp ($5) from CDNN to fit these mags. I also made belt rig from black surplus German/Austrian 308 magpouches ($2). I'll think that I have picture of that setup too if anyone is interested. Cheap 'n Ugly...  Like Saiga...

PJ

[Singlestack]

I found an interesting review on the Saiga.

 http://www.jpfo.org/siaga.htm

(Edited by Singlestack at 10:18 pm on Sep. 21, 2002)

[Carlos]

I think Evil PJ is correct; new manufactured detachable SHOTGUN magazines that hold more than 5 round are banned - AGAIN, FOR SHOTGUNS only!!!!.  Yes, I know about civilian legal post-ban 10 rounders for everything  - - except shotguns.  I am also aware of the limited supply of postban .410 Saiga Shotgun mags that held 10 rounds and that were for sale to civilians in the recent past (again, in .410 bore) - see any of those for sale recently? Did not think so. I wish it were not so, but it looks like the 12 and 20 Saigas are limited to 5 round magazines. So do the open-class Remington/Winchester?browning/ Beneli shooters still feel threatened?

[kdmoore]

I'm going to freshen this thread, as I just purchased a Saiga in 20ga, and have interest in this subject

As I'm reading the quoted law, the saiga does not have a "a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds" but rather a "an ability to accept a detachable magazine".  The two seem mutually exclusive as one is fixed, the other detach.  But I'm no lawyer, and the proof is in governmental interpretation anyway.  

I've heard rumours that old 7 round mag's are available, and a few 10 rounders prototypes.  Could it be the difficulty in getting reliable feed from rimmed ammo is the main reason?  

I've heard that folks are cutting notches in the safety lever that allow it to be pivoted up and hold the bolt open.

Still don't know if it is for serious competition, but it doesn't matter as I'm not a serious competitor.  Well, maybe serious, but I'm not skilled.

TIA

[Carlos]

Makes sense to me - and I pointed out, there were 10 round mags sold for the .410 Saiga. I know the russians make 8 and 10 round mags for the 12 - they just do not sel them here.

For those wishing to give this a go, good news: CDNN just slashed the price of the 20 gauge to only  $ 169.99.  So you are looking for a limited gun? Turns out the cheapest one is also the best / fastest reload out there? Could this be too good to be true? You tell me.

[FayettevilleFatKid]

You guys had better be really careful, I mentioned this shotgun on this site back during the spring and Kyle and another guy got real mad at me...

[KyleL]

FatBoy,

No I wasn't mad... I told you it was ok to use that shotgun in our match.. And that still stands, grab the Rusky big bore and come on down... LOL   Hope you and the fellas at Jerys are doing ok..... Slap Dave for me ADIOS Kyle

[Tokarev]

Any updates on this? I recently paid too much for a Saiga-12 but like it anyway. I'll have to see about getting a Kobra sight next.

[bigsaxdog]

Kobra's are real nice!!!!

[Correia]

I have a Saiga. It has been extreamly reliable. No malfunctions yet with any kind of load. Here is a detailed review that I posted on The High Road. www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41246

I used it in a 3 gun match last Saturday. It has got a ton of potential.

[kellyn]

How do Saiga shooters deal w/ select slug? Do you have to do a mag change? Detachable mags sound great but I think a few slug targets here and there (that can't all be engaged form one postion) would put a big crimp in the Saiga's perceived advantage.

[Correia]

Kelly, it is a serious pain in the butt, and one of the major downsides of the gun. Select slug requires the loading of another magazine, or dropping a mag and single loading a round directly into the chamber. Select slug is a killer.

[Tokarev]

I took my Saiga-12 to the sporting clays range and had a pretty good time with it. Have you guys found anything that the gun won't cycle with? I've shot birdshot, buckshot, and slugs with no problems but haven't tried any 3" mag stuff yet.

I'm surprised at how little the gun seems to recoil. It's a fairly light gun and I thought it'd have more thump with slugs than it does.

I've got a Kobra sight on order and look forward to trying that out as well. I may even join the American Communist Party if I can find a local office!