Mod19 /357/ Fun Or Masochistic?

[Guninhand]

Hi folks,

A 6.5 inch 610 is my competition gun, but I have a nice, tight little 4 inchKframe model 19 that I've never used in competition, plus I've shot .38 special in competition but not .357 mag.

In the next local competition I'm thinking of sacrificing the practice and experience of handling my 610, practice I need, for the thrill of shooting the 19 with .357 rounds.

My shooting buds say I'll just hurt my hands and burn my fingers. So, anyone shoot .357 in a light gun and like it?

[Airedale]

Guninhand,

Who says revolver shooters are "normal" to begin with?

I'd say it will be a handful over the course of a match but it will be interesting to hear your after action report.

Mrs. Airedale is about to transition to a moonclipped 586 but will be shooting minor.

Have fun and let us know the results,

Dave

[revchuck]

I've started shooting all my .357s - M13, M19, M681 and M27 - with .357 ammo. K frames with full power ammo get your attention, but they're not punishing. The recoil is more straight back, with less muzzle flip due to the relatively lower bore line.

Stick with 158s in the K frame. They're easier on the gun than the 125s when shooting Major loads. My load is a 158 grain RNL over 6.8 grains of new Unique with Federal 200 primers - goes ~1120-1140 fps from my four inch guns. I used this load to classify in ESR, shooting my 681 with HKS speedloaders. My scores weren't but about a couple of seconds off my times with .38s.

Another thing to remember - shooting Major loads in a K frame gets you style points.

[BrianH]

Bigger grips help the K frame with full power loads, too. I always liked the S&W target grip they used to come with, goofy as they looked.

[sargenv]

Something to think about... I know two people who had K frame Smiths and both of them shot full power 357's in them and both of them no longer do since the guns couldn't take it. While you can shoot 357's in them, they really were more designed for 38's and "can" fire occasional 357's. At least that's been my experience. I think the reason for the eventual L frame 357's was that people wanted a revolver they could feed a constant diet of 357 magnum ammo without shooting the gun loose.

As usual, my opinion is worth about $.02, but I'd be leery of shooting nothing but full power 357 ammo in these light framed guns.

Vince

[Carlos]

I used to use by brother's unusual parkerized model 19 for shooting bowling pins; it was before I took up reloading & would just buy Pro Load defensive 125 grn & 158 grn hollowpoints that were both quite hot. The gun was not unusually punishing or hard to handle; it was the only wheelgun I knew back then.

Vince, I value your opinion & I can add that after using such harsh loads in my brother's model 19, it went out of time & shaved off jacket/bullet with every round. Well, back it went to the bad-old S&W (the Brit-owned, Clinton-caving iteration) and they returned it several weeks later with new parts and a bill for $80.

1st time we fired it, I got a 1/2 circle sliver of jacket right in the thumb for my trouble (bled all over the place too; what a mess). Took a while to heal up too.

Again it went back to S&W w/a letter that I drafted using a healthy dose of legaleze. This time it returned after S&W installed a BRAND NEW FRAME (& no charge - gee). This would have been OK only my brother lived in California at the time & they have full handgun registration that is somehow fixed to his address; now he owned a gun that CA had not given him permission to own. He solved the problem by moving out of state & not looking back. He does not shoot anymore but I bet that gun still works wherever it is.

Regards,

D.C. Johnson

[Heath]

I've got an old Model 19 that's had a fair number of .357 magnum loads through it. I'd say that it's suffered for it. The endshake is pretty awful, the cylinder gap is excessive and the timing is starting to go. At some point, I'm going to get around to fixing all that and then stick to .38spl mostly.

I have read that K-frames were designed around a 158 grain load, which was all that was available at the time and that the more recently developed 124 grain loads can be fairly punishing for the gun. A quick look at what commonly available defensive ammo comes up in the 180-195PF range. If one reloads, I'd wager that one could come up with a relatively soft shooting load with a heavy bullet and still make 165-170PF, particularly with a longer barrel.

[sargenv]

I've always kind of been of the persuasion of "If it is chambered for X, I'm going to shoot X in it". If I had a model 19 in the early days, I too would have probably fired full power loads in it since "it's a 357 magnum". I figure that back in the day, the Model 19 was designed to be carried a lot and not shot a whole lot. I've been told that PD's back in the day usually used 38 spl ammo for practice, and the gun runs great on that. Officers might qualify with the full power stuff, but qualifying doesn't mean they burn 1000's of rounds like most of us shooters regularly do.

Anyway.. this has been beaten to a pulp...

Vince

PS... I also shoot a 6.5" 610 Classic for Revolver division and ICORE.

[Guninhand]

I went to the shoot and took the 610 and the mdl 19. It was raining and I was going to ask to shoot twice if there was a low turnout. There wasn't, so I went with the 610 and I get half the primers not igniting on the first stage.

The load is using .40 brass with Winchester primers, from the same brass/primer batch that I fired around 300 practice rounds with 2 days before with no misfires.

The only difference was in practice I used blue steel moon clips, but my match ammo has the polymer clips. This was my first time using them, and it looks like there is just enough cushion in them to make Winchester primers unreliable. I'll confirm this later with a side by side comparison.

So, I got to shoot the mdl19 after all. The end result was no pain and no gain. The heavier recoil slows down splits, you have to remember to grip strongly and bear down as heavily as you can. On one classifier I got 4 As and a C in 5.6? seconds and the closest semi on my squad got 5 As in 5.8?seconds.

I was using Safariland speedloaders and the thumblatch interferes with reloading, it takes a precise lining-up to get the rounds ejected in.

I think the loud noise is the real reason people who don't use a 4in .357 don't want others them using them.

[revchuck]

I was using Safariland speedloaders and the thumblatch interferes with reloading, it takes a precise lining-up to get the rounds ejected in.

I think the loud noise is the real reason people who don't use a 4in .357 don't want others them using them.

Switching to the new style thumb latch (or the Ed Brown one) will cure the speedloader interference problem.

I shot a night IDPA match with my M13 and 158 grain JHPs over 8.4 grains of Longshot. It was a little flashy and afterwards another shooter said that he had had to cover his ears - and he was already wearing plugs...

[professor]

I started shooting IPSC in 2001 with Mod 19 4" bbl, loading 38 Spl to Minor. It handled fine, recoil was minimum, but my accuracy suffered because of the relatively short barrel. Also, ran into the problem of ejecting shells and reloading with speedloaders, because there isn't a whole lot of clearance with the cylinder opened full. No margin for error. At least once a match I hit a snag on getting spent shells out (the inboard shell would hang up on the grip) or in ( the speedloader would hang up on the grip). Also, it started spraying lead out the side, and bullets were keyholing (another sign that bullets weren't entering the forcing cone cleanly). This wouldn't happen shooting at splits of .5 sec, but did when I cranked it to splits of .22 sec.

The past two years, I switched to Mod 586 6" full lug bbl, and now loading 38Spl cases to Major, using 158 gr RNL with 6.1 gr Titegroup. Also set it up for moonclips. Reloading is faster, recoil is under control and not punishing, and accuracy is worlds better with the longer sight radius. I'd like to find a source of heavy (158 gr and up) jacketed RN bullets, because it keeps the gun a lot cleaner. I've tried lighter jacketed bullets, but haven't been able to push them to major with reasonable amounts of Titegroup powder (worried about overpressurization).

Note re Winchester primers... They're too hard for revolvers when you back off the mainspring tension to improve DA pull weights. Use Federal 100s and you'll get reliable ignition with lighter pull.

[revchuck]

I'd like to find a source of heavy (158 gr and up) jacketed RN bullets, because it keeps the gun a lot cleaner. I've tried lighter jacketed bullets, but haven't been able to push them to major with reasonable amounts of Titegroup powder (worried about overpressurization).

Stan - Sierra still makes their 170 grain JRN - but they ain't cheap.

Zero offers a 150 grain .356 JRN bullet for .38 Super. Depending on your dies, it might work. I haven't tried any myself.

I've switched to Unique for Major loads - 6.8 grains under a 158 grain RNL in .357 brass goes about 1120 fps from my four inch guns. Since you're using a six inch gun, you could cut this back, in addition to cutting the charge due to using .38 brass. The new Unique is far cleaner than the old at .357 Mag pressures. During a couple of 130+ round matches, there were only three or four flakes of powder under the extractor star. I cleaned under the star between stages out of habit, but I probably could have gotten away without it.

[pisgahrifle]

Just for S&G I took my wife's little 3" GP-100 out to a club match last summer to make a second run with. I had found a box of old-school 158 JHP High-Vels and just HAD to give it a go. It was neat, but I'll never do a damn fool thing like that at an indoor match ever again!

[Heath]

On a similar topic, does anyone know if one can find a full underlug 6" barrel for the Model 19? I haven't had any luck in that regard and my just end up with a PPC style slab-sided barrel.