Skalkaho Slim Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 I've heard tell that M1A's aren't that good for three gun matches. I am wondering why this is so. As an owner of one, although I don't use it for this sort of thing, I am curious as to why it won't stand up. Thank you. Toujours Pret! Skalkaho Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Slim, The big dogs say the recoil slows them down too much. Not enough points per second. You can likely find a few post/threads on this subject if you do some digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 17, 2002 Share Posted October 17, 2002 Slim: NO ONE ever said they don't hold up. They are probable more reliable than ARs in general and MUCH easier to clear malfunctions on. I have used M1As for 3 gun for many years. If there are a lot of close hose stages they are slower, but if there are long range targets and plates there is NO penalty for using one. WC3GUN is one place where they are very competitive! As an aside the match Rocky Mountain 3 Gun is putting on at the NRA Whittington center this coming August will have a HE MAN CLASS. This will consist of IRON sighted 308s and 30-06s and 10 shot 45s. Just the ticket for REAL RIFLE shooters. By the way the last local rocky mountain 3 gun match waws won by an M1A. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalkaho Slim Posted October 18, 2002 Author Share Posted October 18, 2002 After performing a search, I came up with only two results. One concerning M1A mags and the other dealing with the topic I have put forth. A gentleman stated that he wasn't sure that the M1A's would stand up to 3 gun matches. I was simply surprised by the response, knowing the background of this rifle. I can't imagine the M1A performing quite well (except perhaps for the recoil, as pointed out). I'd still make it my first choice for any "real-world" use any day. Toujours Pret! Skalkaho Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Slim, I think some of those post are under "Shooting Major" in rifle or some such thing. I don't shoot enough 3-gun to make any informed comments (I guess that never stopped me before ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 18, 2002 Share Posted October 18, 2002 Slim: I quite agree!! For any "real world" use I would always go to an M1A. NO ONE has shown me their favorite .223 elk rifle yet, but I have used my M1A with very good results on big game many times. I know 2 guides that use them as primary bear rifles in Alaska due to mag capacity and penetration. As for the match thing, all I can say is I placed an M1A in the top ten 3 years in a row at the S.O.F. world 3 gun championships. It takes more time to get good with one than an AR, and I feel a lot of people just don't have the time to put into the system and this is why you see these types of posts. An M1A can be as competitive as you are. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 20, 2002 Share Posted October 20, 2002 As in highpower, ARs have taken over from M1As in action shooting/3 gun events. Also as in highpower, this does not mean that M1As are no longer competitive. M1As have good sights and a workable trigger, the two most important ingredients. But they are .308s and have all the attendant disadvantages: more recoil, more cost, more wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 21, 2002 Share Posted October 21, 2002 KurtM: you might want to listen to Kelly, he knows what he is talking about. Kelly: can you remind us of some of your recent finishes in "real" 3 gun matches - meaning the USPSA/IPSC kind? I could engage in name-calling and call all that other SOF/tactical-whacktical/also-ran rifle match stuff "sissie matches" - but I will not bother since that is not the point of BE's forum. Practical advice? Well, back on topic, there was a recent demonstration in the 3gn Nationals that the FN-FAL style rifle could be made quite competitive and also meet rifle major - in that case, the particular rifle was chambered in .260 Remington a.k.a. 308-6.5 which is simply the .308 necked to 6.5mm, but with much less recoil and a bullet with a superior B.C. to the .30 cal. offerings. This round is balistically similar to the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser although as a recent standardisation, SAMMI can establish higher load limits for the 260 on account of the newer rifles chambered for it. I believe the M1A has been offered in .243 so there should not be an impediment to chambering it in .260 (not aware of anyone having tried it); alternatively, one might do well with an M1A in .243 to take advantage of reduced recoil. The limit of 20 round magazines would not appear to be a problem as demonstrated by the success of an FAL in the nationals - although the FAL is apparently able to use 30 round 7.65x51mm NATO bren gun magazines (the ones for the later Mk IV Brens that were converted to 7.62 NATO or .308) - don't know if those were used in the Nationals. Were there ever 30 round mags for the M1A? Constructive comments welcome; feel free to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 I did use 30 rounders to compete at the 3 Gun nationals with the FAL. They make life much easier! As for the .260 in M1A, TGO has such a contraption! It has not been unveiled but I expect that it will be a kick ass competition gun. He put a M14E2 stock on it. Better sights than the FAL but I've got a better safety, an adjustable gas system and RELIABLE 30 rounders. FYI TGO's use of a .243 M1A at SOF lead to the rule that only military cartridges can be used! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 CARLOS: From your post I guess you just haven't shot an M1A much or just don't know anyone that does! As for REAL 3 gun matches, I have used an M1A twice and I was the winner so I guess IT REALY works! It just doesn't seem so SISSY when the TARGET takes an active interest in also winning!! As for PLAYING 3 gun games I don't shoot the nationals but have shot S.M.M.3Gun. Four years ago I shot one (M1A) to 6th place. The next year I started shooting a optic sighted AR and placed....6th... BIG CHANGE!!! The year after I won. I won't say that the AR didn't help, it did, but That year the rifle stages were All long range steel and I feel I could have done about the same perfomance with an M1A as the AR. I could nod my head at the alter of Kelly Neal, but would loose toooo much enjoyment of jousting with him on this forum. ( I consider Kelly a good friend). I still feel that if you put in the time, which almost all don't, one can become very competitive with one. I find the recoil of 150gr bullets with a good comp to be very mild. The sights are very close to the bore line and makes close range hits (out to 20yds) a mater of just looking over the sights and pressing the trigger. A drill we just did was 6 targets 2 feet apart, engaged from 7 yards one hit center of mass for each. I was able to do this drill in 2.32 seconds with 5 As and one C WITH an M1A, and 1.95 with 3 As 1C and 1 mike. I agree with Kelly that it costs more than say .223 but not as much as his 260. As for wear, I have one reciever that is on its 4th barrle and doing just fine. I have noticed that I don't need to change bolt components like gas rings, extractor springs and cam pins, because there are none that break or wear. Out side of the barrle on this rifle I haven't changed a single part due to wear. Good heat treatring I guess. As for the safety being better on a Fal, I just don't see it . The M1A's safety is right in front of the trigger, Just a quick flick and it,s off. Yea the Fal safety is where AR shooters are use to it, but this goes back to that " put the time in to learn the system. The sight radius is by far, leaps and bounds, better than ARs, Fals, and a bucket full of H&K. The down sides are, stock design tends to make the rifle recoil up, the E2 stock tends to cure this to a large degree. The only good mags are 20 rnd,( although they can be change VERY fast. This is a trade secret so I won't say how I do it but I can do a 2 shots, change, 2 shots, in the low 5s). The mags are now expensive, and you have to explain to most 3 gun shooters what it is because NO ONE sees one unless I or a scant hand full of guys show up with one. The snickering and giggling seem to abait right around awards time. By the way I AM NOT saying that it is as good a game gun as Kelly's FAL. That Fal would be much easier to shoot with out the hours upon hours of practice, and if one were to put in that amount of time on the Fal it would be incredible, as I believe Kelly has; BUT don't count a good shooter out with the M1A, after all there are 2 more guns one has to be good with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 OK, Got a Question. I am hearing that it makes a decent 3-gun. So my question is what configuration would make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 Kurt - great post w/ lots of info, i.e.: ""The sights are very close to the bore line and makes close range hits (out to 20yds) a mater of just looking over the sights and pressing the trigger." Good point; here in area 8 the rifle stages are often quite close; we simply do not have as many wide open places to shoot at 300+ yards as the lucky folks out west do. At VERY close stages, a shooter has to use the rifle a bit like a shotgun to keep up - instinctive point shooting and a good fitting stock (plus lotsa practice) can let you fly through really close stages without ever bringing the Leupold's cross hairs into sharp focus on the A zone. """I still feel that if you put in the time, which almost all don't, one can become very competitive with one. I find the recoil of 150gr bullets with a good comp to be very mild."" I agree; the lighter bullets (around 150 and below) are part of what accounts for the lower recoil in the .260 Remington and I imagine in TGO's .243 cal M1A. In .308, I have noticed a difference even between the Sierra 168 HP and the 150s - with the 150s getting the nod for faster recovery. Hopefully there will be further interest/development of major cal. 3gun rifles as far as loads and comps go; I can imagine major PF rifles someday shooting very light bullets at fast and flat velocities while at the same time using efficient comps to keep the rifle as steady as the AR-15s currently are. As long as it stays in the rules, maybe the .243 is the way to go? It is out of my budget right now. Anyone else up for an experiment? ""As for wear, I have one reciever that is on its 4th barrle and doing just fine. I have noticed that I don't need to change bolt components like gas rings, extractor springs and cam pins, because there are none that break or wear."" Agreed. For reliability sake, I am a fan of operating rod systems like the M1, M1A, AK-47 series, etc. since I believe it is a terrible idea to bring high pressure vent gas all the way back into the action and then rely on coplicated metering systems to make the action function. While I own and build AR-15s (take a look at http://www.roderuscustom.tzo.com), I like the original concept of the AR-18/180, Daewoo DR series, LM Weapons series rifles that all use reliable operating rods rather than the direct gas system like the traditional ARs. Note: there can be difficulties with op-rod set-ups affecting accuracy though; take a look at the modifications needed to get an M1A to national match specifications. A tight-fitting gas tube does not allow the barrel to float free; moreover, free floating an op-rod gun is more involved than simply throuwing a free float tube on an AR. I also think that while the AR-15 *can* be made reliable, in practice it often jams; check out a local 3 gun match and see if there are any rifle jams. Are there? Did they happen to AR-15s? Now check out a local competition following the national match course where you will still find Garands and M1As; were there any jams? Decide for yourself which system tends to be more reliable in actual competition use for the average, real-world competitor. My ideal 3 gun rifle would have a gas-piston system. The down sides are, stock design tends to make the rifle recoil up, the E2 stock tends to cure this to a large degree. The only good mags are 20 rnd,( although they can be change VERY fast. This is a trade secret so I won't say how I do it but I can do a 2 shots, change, 2 shots, in the low 5s). The mags are now expensive, and you have to explain to most 3 gun shooters what it is because NO ONE sees one unless I or a scant hand full of guys show up with one. The snickering and giggling seem to abait right around awards time. Yeah, that is one bad trend I have noticed in USPSA; you show up with anything out of the ordinary and you get reactions like "You are going to compete with WHAT??!!?" For a sport built on inovation, we are often times a bit too judgemental on anything out of what some consider "the norm". You can imagine the head scratching and snickering when someone shows up with DR, a 9mm AR, etc. ""By the way I AM NOT saying that it is as good a game gun as Kelly's FAL. That Fal would be much easier to shoot with out the hours upon hours of practice, and if one were to put in that amount of time on the Fal it would be incredible, as I believe Kelly has; BUT don't count a good shooter out with the M1A"" Fair enough - and that is also the answer to the original poster's question. The M1A is a viable 3gun rifle given enough practice. ""I don't shoot the nationals but have shot S.M.M.3Gun. Four years ago I shot one (M1A) to 6th place. The next year I started shooting a optic sighted AR and placed....6th... BIG CHANGE!!! The year after I won. I won't say that the AR didn't help, it did, but That year the rifle stages were All long range steel and I feel I could have done about the same perfomance with an M1A as the AR. Good shooting! Results speak volumes about what *can* work. Regards, D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 If the M!A is legal in Kalifornia, then putting a pistol grip stock on it would make it unlawful. Go with the standard, or the military synthetic if you find the wood too thick at the wrist. Fit a comp on it to tame the recoil. Put a thin rubber pad on the stock to buffer your cheek. Brownells makes them for sissy skeet shooters. Then load your own .308, and load down from standard. Factory ammo is way over the threshold. A 168 @ 2550 is a 428PF, and all you need is to break 340. If you load a 150 @2300, you're in. The trick will be getting a load that works the gas mechanism. I learned on a Garand, so I'm biased towards the stock and safety of the M1/M1A system, and find the FAL just a bit fussy to work with. But thats what practice is for. I'm still scheming a way to make major in an AR, and not have a softball trajectory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 I agree that M1As are more reliable than AR but I think ARs hold up better. I learned how to shoot on a M1A/M14 as a junior highpower shooter. I shot several of them apart. I have yet to do that to an AR. It is well known in the land of highpower that M1As require more TLC than ARs. Bedding gives out, op rods bend, gas systems come out of spec, etc. ARs have less going on when they go off and less stuff to break. The altar of kelly neal! where is that? But seriously, Kurt and I almost completely agree on this topic and most others (not shotgun loading though!). M1As are good rifles. In the end it will be the shooter that makes the difference. I usually shoot Nolser 125 grain BTs in .308 for 3 gun, not 168s or 150s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 ""I learned how to shoot on a M1A/M14 as a junior highpower shooter. I shot several of them apart. I have yet to do that to an AR. It is well known in the land of highpower that M1As require more TLC than ARs. Bedding gives out, op rods bend, gas systems come out of spec, etc. ARs have less going on when they go off and less stuff to break."" As a highpower veteran, you have more experience than I in that dept, though I seem to remember Glen Zediker had a paragraph or two along those very same lines in his AR bible. He is also a highpower shooter who started w/ the M1A and is now an AR convert - and I think he gives a very fair account of how that happened as well as why. Excellent resource IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Brown Posted October 22, 2002 Share Posted October 22, 2002 I will start by saying I know very little about rifles. That said, I have heard that M1A's have become inconsistent in terms of accuracy when they are routinely disassembled for cleaning. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm this? I have been looking to get a 308 battle rifle for a while (although it is still a ways down the road) but have been waffling between the M1A and FAL. I just don't want to spend $1500 to realize I picked the wrong one. Any advice or constructive comments? Michael Brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalkaho Slim Posted October 23, 2002 Author Share Posted October 23, 2002 That is indeed a hard choice. I went with the M1A. Just something about it. The wood, the history, the "feel". I really like the FAL as well, and most likely will get one at some point in time (when funds allow). As you've seen already, both rifles have their pluses and minuses. My suggestion would be to pick one up and if possible shoot it. I love my M1A and would not give it up for anything. Toujours Pret! Skalkaho Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Having spent entirely too much time keeping my M1 Garand and M1A in match trim, the Ar wins hands down. At peak accurayc, they are all very close. But the two .30 cal rifles suffer more from wear and tear. With even mild abuse they quickly revert to standard (plenty good, though) accuracy. Advantages of the M1A: Great trigger with minor tuning, great sights, common parts and gunsmith base. Disadvantages: fussy bedding, stock that is short and requires some getting used to, gas system that can alter accuracy if not kept tight. Advantages of the FAL: natural stock, good handling, durability, adjustable gas system. Disadvantages: sights s*ck as match sights, safety requires long thumb (although not as long as an HK) too many controls too close for easy mag changes (practice helps) higher gunsmithing costs for trigger and barrel work. Shoot them both and see what you like. For soft shooting ammo, I once pulled the bullets from Winchester white box and substituted 110 gr softpoints. Worked the gas system just fine. For what we do, and with regular cleaning, it can be very forgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPiatt Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Good thread guys... I've got my 2 cents to add. From what I've experienced, Patrick is right on regarding M1A maintenance. I think the bottom line is "shoot what you're comfortable with". I'd love to shoot .308 just once at SOF but I can't see the benefit, FOR ME. If you shoot your's good, by all means, it's not going to hurt you. This year would have been a good year to shoot one. Lot's of paper targets where the extra points would have mattered. Some years there is more steel than paper, then it doesn't matter what caliber you shoot. Like I saide, that changes from year to year and you don't know until the night before competition. Then you're not allowed to change the caliber you declare at match registration. If I were to shoot Major, I think I'd like to shoot an AR-10. (AR configuration in .308) That would give you the best of both worlds. Better reloading, better safety, and a good trigger. Flattop AR-10 w/ CQT or Acog scope and you've got a good match gun in Major. Just my 2 cents.. Bruce Piatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 PAT & KELLY: I agree that it is much easier to keep an AR in " match trim" than an M1A. Bedding does go out after a time, although I have found that by using steel bed and a stage 4 pillar bedding job it takes A LOT longer to go. Even when it is "gone" most rfles will still be 1 1/2-2 min. rifles. As for the gas system, I shim them and RED loctite every thing in to place. I haven't shot one loose yet. YES it does take more to get a tack driver M1A, but once done it is plenty accurate for 3 gun fun, for many years to come. MR BROWN: The Fals can be just as finicky as M1As. Most M1As will be 2min. rifles out of the box, some better with good ammo. Most Fals I have delt with fall into the same range, although DS Arms seem to be getting better results than this WITH GOOD AMMO. BALL AMMO IS NOT GOOD AMMO!! I recently picked up a Springfield Armory M1A for $400.00 dollars because the guy that had it couldn't get it to shoot. He had a gen one scope mount w/ a old redfield and was shooting CAVIM ball ammo from Venesuala. I took the rifle home cleaned it and gave it some good old M118 Special ball ( Army match ammo of the 90s) and it shot a 1 3/4" group for 5 shots at 200 yds. I then tried the Cavim he gave me with the rifle and 5 shots nestled into a nice tight 12" group. Ball ammo in the 142-150 grain range is JUNK. Don't use this stuff to test the accuracy of a .308 rifle!! The Fals I have seen seem to be a bit finicky about extraction and ejection, but once again these have been being shot with surplus ball ammo, so it is hard to say if it was the rifle or the ammo. I myself would pick the M1A but that is because I am use to them and know how to do all the stuff that it takes to make them accurate. As an aside a friend of mine just got a D.S.A. Fal w/ 18" bbl. and an ERGO GRIP. This grip is the cats a** it changes the angle of the regular grip and makes the rifle feel just like an AR AND the safety is easier to reach. This is a WAY COOL accessory!!! KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 Mr Brown: I realise that I didn't answer your question quite fully. The M1A is a bit inconsistent in terms of disassembly reassemble accuracy.ONLY IN A FULLY BEDDED MATCH RIFLE. I have one rifle that requiers 35 rounds to RESEAT the actin to the bedding, after a full disassembly (ONCE EVERY 800 ROUNDS). The other, closer to 50 rounds. In most stock rifles I find that about 10 rounds does it, as they are not as tight in the stock allowing the bbl. and action to find it's equalibrium faster. Hope this helps. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chi Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 does anyone know if I can buy a M1A receiver only with bolt in Calif.? Does the same rule apply to rifles as it does to handguns? Monday Iam going to call DOJ. Just thinking it might be easier to built one up than to pay 1200 or more for a Calif. legal one that your going to trick out! thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Yes, as the M1A is CA legal, an M1A receiver is legal. No such thing about approved "on the list" as for handguns. The hard part is finding a bare receiver and finding a dealer willing to transfer it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 Chi, These folks list a M14A2 receiver for sale: http://www.entreprise.com/ I have no idea who or what they are .... but they sure are proud of their stuff Very pricey. I think I'd buy a Springfield M1A. Springfield supports our sport & sponsors TGO. Seems good enough to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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