Tanfoglio Stock II - failure to feed [last round only]

[reaper1]

1 hour ago, yigal said:

from this side the angle looks  o.k . but it looks  on  last pic.  that it need better polish - like mirror.

the most important place : meeting between feed ramp and the chamber  must be perfectly rounded  (not too deep- brass need support) and polished.

pic. from side and 45 deg. can be better  choice.

 extractor looks o.k.  i don't   see any  broken  edges.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe these photos will be helpful:

[yigal]

yes . very good pic.  

it  needs  better polishing  .! from this pic. you can see that entrance to chamber is rounded but it has  rough surface !

its the most important place. 

sorry i don't know how send pic. like yours that u can see barrel  that  was fixed on tan. with the same problem and finished world shoot in france 

few weeks ago without   any   problem  .since it was fixed it shoots more than 4000 rounds clearly .

 

[reaper1]

During further examination I've noticed that there is a problem with extractor. Not always the shell is catched by the extractor after releasing from the mag, but the tension of the extractor spring should allow to catch the shell when the slide hits the shell (I hope you understand what I mean) - this is not happening, I gues due to too high extractor spring tension. I have to hit the slide really hard from the back to overcome the spring tension and make the extractor catch the shell.

 

What I've done is:

- polish the extractor,

- replaced tge extractor spring to lighter one

 

Now each shell is catched by the extractor very easily.

 

Another explanation of the issue:

Before modification: when I put the bullet directly into the chamber I could NOT lock the slide without hitting it very hard from the back (due to extractor problem - too hard spring, I guess)

 

After modification:

All is working smooth (I can put a bullet into the chamber and move the slide very slow forward and the extractor is catching the shell very easily).

Edited September 24, 2017 by reaper1

[yigal]

33 minutes ago, reaper1 said:

During further examination I've noticed that there is a problem with extractor. Not always the shell is catched by the extractor after releasing from the mag, but the tension of the extractor spring should allow to catch the shell when the slide hits the shell (I hope you understand what I mean) - this is not happening, I gues due to too high extractor spring tension. I have to hit the slide really hard from the back to overcome the spring tension and make the extractor catch the shell.

 

What I've done is:

- polish the extractor,

- replaced tge extractor spring to lighter one

 

Now each shell is catched by the extractor very easily.

 

Another explanation of the issue:

Before modification: when I put the bullet directly into the chamber I could NOT lock the slide without hitting it very hard from the back (due to extractor problem - too hard spring, I guess)

 

After modification:

All is working smooth (I can put a bullet into the chamber and move the slide very slow forward and the extractor is catching the shell very easily).

 very good! that u find the problem .

this type of extractor have tendency breaks at  edges when u force them overcome   the shell.

did u done polish at the entrance to chamber?

Edited September 24, 2017 by yigal

[reaper1]

Yes, I polished feed ramp, entrance to the chamber, extractor.

Chamfered and polished the edge described earlier and replaced the extractor's spring to the lighter one.

 

If above will not help then I don't know ehat else would.

[yigal]

now u have  good toy   for many years.

i use in my toy  buffer to prevent metal to metal contact.

i use it 10 years  and it works 100% and didn't replace nothing .only put race hammer and change  slm.  barrels every 25 000 r.

 

 

[johnbu]

4 hours ago, reaper1 said:

.

 

Another explanation of the issue:

Before modification: when I put the bullet directly into the chamber I could NOT lock the slide without hitting it very hard from the back (due to extractor problem - too hard spring, I guess)

 

 

 

These guns are NOT happy when people abuse them by dropping in a round and forcing the extractor over the rim. They dont seem to have been designed for direct drop.  Always, insert a mag and rack the slide to feed for long life of all components . But, your gun ...

 

(Since you seem to enjoy doing so, buy several extractors and pre-fit them so they will drop in during a match.)

 

Your root issue was the breech face not polished. That friction slowed / stopped the feeding up into the extractor. Also polish the frame and slide rails. That will make cycling easier all around.

[reaper1]

When FTF take place I have two option:

- rack the slide again,

- hit the slide from the back really hard to force extractor to go over the rim of the shell

I don't like both of above.

 

I was testing how it works with the other gun (Beretta 92FS - I know this is not a race gun, but it's a gun ;)) and when the bullet is not catched by the extractor in the 1st phase (when the bullet is pushed of the mag) then the extractor is very easily and smoothly go over the rim of the shell and catch it anyway.

This is what I wanted to achieve in my Tanfoglio and what I achieved by replacing the extractor's spring to the lighter one.

 

I really hope that this lighter spring will be working and do not cause any other damage - didn't have ocasion to test it on range, only with dummy rounds without any issues.

[ALO11]

On 9/24/2017 at 7:23 AM, reaper1 said:

When FTF take place I have two option:

- rack the slide again,

- hit the slide from the back really hard to force extractor to go over the rim of the shell

I don't like both of above.

 

I was testing how it works with the other gun (Beretta 92FS - I know this is not a race gun, but it's a gun ;)) and when the bullet is not catched by the extractor in the 1st phase (when the bullet is pushed of the mag) then the extractor is very easily and smoothly go over the rim of the shell and catch it anyway.

This is what I wanted to achieve in my Tanfoglio and what I achieved by replacing the extractor's spring to the lighter one.

 

I really hope that this lighter spring will be working and do not cause any other damage - didn't have ocasion to test it on range, only with dummy rounds without any issues.

 

Reaper1, which spring did you get and where did you get it for the lighter extractor spring?  I posted about the very same issues (you actually referred to my thread in one post and it sounds like we also both shared in the frustration that we paid a lot of money for a gun and basically have to gunsmith it to run reliabily.  I was about to give up and switch to CZ...that's a risky thing to say on this forum haha). I also came to the same conclusion and mentioned in one of my posts I thought it seemed like it was either the extractor or too tight of a extractor spring. I ordered a new one though and changed it out, but that didn't help, so I went the route of buying stronger mag springs -basically to force the round into position when the mag is almost empty (2nd to last or last round).  This seemed to have solved the problem but it's a band-aid IMO.  I have to buy a stronger mag spring and change it out for every mag I buy.  I didn't know they sold lighter extractor springs.

 

Also I know I know, a lot of people will say my breechface needs to be polished more, but I have and I don't feel any burrs.

[reaper1]

ALO11,

 

Hehe, I get a lighter spring from one of these devices: simply smashed it with a hammer and bunch of springs popped out which have exactly the same dimensions as the original one from the extractor (but lighter)

 

BUT!

Last saturday I fired more than 250 rounds without a single FTF, however 5 times I had Failure to Extract (never happened before).

So, the spring should be stronger, I changed it back to the original and will test it once again next weekend.

 

BTW. I've made a mistake, 'cos I chamfered that edge (breechface, right?), polished it and also polished the extractor and entrance to the chamber... and replaced the spring at the same time - which maybe was unnecessary.

 

Also concidered to get back to CZ. I have enough of Tanfoglios and shooting for testings not for fun :/

[MemphisMechanic]

Tanfoglios require rather substantial gunsmithing to run like a top, that’s not something anyone in this forum will dispute. 

 

Like an off-the-rack 1911, if you want a smooth gun that runs on light loads? You’ll be doing some re-springing, parts-changing, and polishing.

 

And a light extractor spring is definitely a mistake: most of us run wolff’s extra-power spring for a reason. If the gun is set up with a glass smooth breechface and properly fit extractor? Well, mine went six months of weekly use without any feed or extraction issues. Just ran like a Glock.

[yigal]

4 hours ago, reaper1 said:

ALO11,

 

Hehe, I get a lighter spring from one of these devices: simply smashed it with a hammer and bunch of springs popped out which have exactly the same dimensions as the original one from the extractor (but lighter)

 

BUT!

Last saturday I fired more than 250 rounds without a single FTF, however 5 times I had Failure to Extract (never happened before).

So, the spring should be stronger, I changed it back to the original and will test it once again next weekend.

 

BTW. I've made a mistake, 'cos I chamfered that edge (breechface, right?), polished it and also polished the extractor and entrance to the chamber... and replaced the spring at the same time - which maybe was unnecessary.

 

Also concidered to get back to CZ. I have enough of Tanfoglios and shooting for testings not for fun :/

can u make pic. how it looks after u fixed it? (feed ramp,breech face and extractor)

put back the original spring as  M.M said.

Edited October 2, 2017 by yigal

[reaper1]

I'm not certain that the issue is fixed. I have to test it with original extractor's spring.

Now it looks like this:

[johnbu]

If the gun has the frame and slide rails smoothed out, the breech face and associated areas also polished smooth (as shown above) there should be no feed issues. The bottom of the breech face above could be chamfered a bit more too.

 

  I have seen feed issues on people's guns that;

 

1)need cleaning around the extractor to slide

2)are grungy in the slide or frame rails (oil and powder residue sludge)

3) have burrs on the extractor hook

4) have a sharp edge on the bottom of the breech face

5) have old weak extractor spring

6) were "abused" by hand dropping a round in and running the extractor over the case rim

7) are running long slide springs that coil bind and limit slide travel

8 ) have dirty magazines (or other mag issues)

 

The most common are 1, 2, 7, and 8. But who knows what is the exact root cause, without a close inspection.

 

My gun has run well over 20k rounds and feed / extraction has not been an issue after the initial 50-100 rounds of break in.  Seriously.

[ALO11]

17 minutes ago, johnbu said:

If the gun has the frame and slide rails smoothed out, the breech face and associated areas also polished smooth (as shown above) there should be no feed issues. The bottom of the breech face above could be chamfered a bit more too.

 

  I have seen feed issues on people's guns that;

 

1)need cleaning around the extractor to slide

2)are grungy in the slide or frame rails (oil and powder residue sludge)

3) have burrs on the extractor hook

4) have a sharp edge on the bottom of the breech face

5) have old weak extractor spring

6) were "abused" by hand dropping a round in and running the extractor over the case rim

7) are running long slide springs that coil bind and limit slide travel

8 ) have dirty magazines (or other mag issues)

 

The most common are 1, 2, 7, and 8. But who knows what is the exact root cause, without a close inspection.

 

My gun has run well over 20k rounds and feed / extraction has not been an issue after the initial 50-100 rounds of break in.  Seriously.

 

Johnbu, you mentioned something that caught my interest - #7 in your list.  I run a long slide spring.  But I would imagine a lot of tangfo owners run a long slide spring as that is what Henning sells.  I have an 8lb long slide spring so in a regular length slide should equate to a 10lb, or at least that's what is said on the website.  I would imagine anyone running springs from Henning is running a long slide spring.  

[yigal]

[yigal]

http://forums.brianenos.com/profile/14647-carlb86/content/?type=forums_topic_post&page=3

did extractor hold the cartridge after polish?

not all surface of extractor need polish. only bottom  that have radius.

i prefer  not touch  straight  area for better shell grip.

i used extractor with changed geometry and it holds 70 000 rounds and didn't breaks.works 100% 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by yigal

[C-Money]

10 hours ago, ALO11 said:

 

Johnbu, you mentioned something that caught my interest - #7 in your list.  I run a long slide spring.  But I would imagine a lot of tangfo owners run a long slide spring as that is what Henning sells.  I have an 8lb long slide spring so in a regular length slide should equate to a 10lb, or at least that's what is said on the website.  I would imagine anyone running springs from Henning is running a long slide spring.  

 

Easy to check coil bind. Take out recoil spring, reassemble gun. Note where slide goes back (as if under recoil) in relation to frame (it will hit the frame near the guide rod). Then, put spring back in and repeat. If gun does not go back as far, you are definitely binding.

 

I figured out that one very possible problem with springs which are Too long but don't bind is that it makes slide lockback and dropping the slide release very difficult due to the spring tension. Maybe it is over stressing the spring. 

 

The last round failure to feed is one I've only experienced using .40 followers in a 10mm mag with Henning extensions and very long ammo. I don't think Tanfos feed long rounds as well as a 1911 might. 

[reaper1]

Another 100 rounds fired without FTF issue (In total over 300).

 

However 1x FTE (failure to extract) on the original extractor's spring.

I'm afraid that during last competitions I damaged the extractor by hitting the slide from the back, is it possible? (never had a single FTE before this competitions  - attached a movie):

PS. Please don't judge my skill, I'm beginner 

 

 

[yigal]

can u make pic of extractor? removed .

did it hold case securely with  pressure of 900 g.

what is power of recoil spring that u use?

see pic. above of feed ramp after polish  from my post  .its smooth all the way. (not like yours. u have horizontal line on the middle of ramp   .i  can say its more grinding than polish ). be careful not removing  too much material from  chamber . case must stay supported. don't expose more than 4mm. of the case.

 polish its something that almost not remove material  and its  shiny .

try order new extractor .its good have one spare. its gentle  and fragile part. and don't make polish on  middle area of extractor.

u will fix it  .

yours shooting skills   much  better than  my shooting and  writing skills

Edited October 8, 2017 by yigal

[reaper1]

This is what I have changed in my tanfo:

Tanfoglio Xtreme Hammer Spring - Model : Medium

Tanfoglio Xtreme Sear Lever - Model : Regular

Recoil Spring - Model : 56AA - 10 lbs

Tanfoglio Xtreme Firing Pin Spring - Model : Medium

 

"did it hold case securely with  pressure of 900 g."

 

How to measure above?

Does feeding ramp has anything to do with extraction?

 

I will order new extractor, it seems like the best what I can.

[yigal]

17 minutes ago, reaper1 said:

This is what I have changed in my tanfo:

Tanfoglio Xtreme Hammer Spring - Model : Medium

Tanfoglio Xtreme Sear Lever - Model : Regular

Recoil Spring - Model : 56AA - 10 lbs

Tanfoglio Xtreme Firing Pin Spring - Model : Medium

 

"did it hold case securely with  pressure of 900 g."

 

How to measure above?

Does feeding ramp has anything to do with extraction?

 

I will order new extractor, it seems like the best what I can.

feed ramp don't  effect  on extraction. 

i just like see it smooth all the way.

if u have too much pressure from extractor to case. 10lb  recoil spring probably weak for this.

try new extractor or try use 11lb rs

we use on ours 12-13 lb

from your competition what i saw was not extraction problems .

Edited October 8, 2017 by yigal

[reaper1]

Do You know how much lb has the original spring?

 

PS. I'm using 10lb spring from the very beginning. FTE start to occur since last competitions in September.

Edited October 8, 2017 by reaper1

[yigal]

what we use its original for 9mm. small frame with slide  limited bul barrel 12-13 lb rs

on cz ts and tso we use 12-16 lb  with factory ammo s&b and magtech  all 115 grain. all  cz with buffers.!

 

p.s .check that extractor don't has damage.

Edited October 8, 2017 by yigal

[reaper1]

Have installed the new extractor.

It has slightly different dimensions at some points...next sunday I will test it.