Shooting a Different Division to Hone Specific Skills?

[ny32182]

I wrote up some thoughts on shooting a different division to press improvement on different skills:

http://www.gmshooting.com/shooting-a-different-division-to-hone-specific-skills-part-1/

[Jake Di Vita]

I like the majority of what's here, I think that training with a dot is also a vastly under-utilized tool. If you take that as far as competing in Open, the pressure of perfect execution is also at its highest since mistakes are so costly in the division that usually produces the highest hit factor.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Shooting OPEN really helped me (an Old Bullseye shooter) speed up

even when I shoot Limited.

[Gooldylocks]

Nick, I totally agree with you on the idea that switching divisions can teach you new skills. I have learned a lot about movement, position entries and exits, and shot calling since making the move to open from limited. I am considering some single stack minor in the future to force myself to shoot more alphas, and take fewer makeups.

I think that it is very difficult for people (most people, probably at your or Jake's level you guys probably can) to switch in their brain and say "okay I'm only gonna shoot alphas, and pay zero attention to the time" or "I know I'm shooting minor, but I'm gonna focus purely on shooting into positions and go fast, not worry as much about the points."

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[ny32182]

Thanks guys... I'm interested to see how it plays out. I think the first club match met my expectations regarding how I think it will play out and what I will need to improve on to compete at a better level in Limited. I imagine Open is again, totally different. Just not sure about how shooting with a dot would impact your iron sight shooting in the long term.

At least in the US (among non-Eric shooters) you seem to have guys that are at the top in either Open, or whatever iron sight division they are shooting at the time, but not both.

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't know, there are a lot of top level guys that were primarily open shooters at one point that consistently perform well today in iron sighted divisions. JJ, Max, Travis, Shane, Chris, and others. How many rounds have you put through a dot gun in your career out of curiosity? There are clearly some glaring differences in open, but I don't think shooting open will negatively impact your ability to shoot other divisions assuming you are skilled enough to approach shooting each division by its own merits.

What I do know is using a dot gives you an amazing amount of feedback about what the gun is doing at all times - I think that is extremely useful information that applies to any division you shoot. It also lets you focus highly on other aspects of the game since the rather large aspect of sight alignment is gone. There certainly may be a small lag time when switching back and forth to get yourself accustomed to using the sights again, but I think its something any sufficiently skilled shooter should be able to do.

Back when I was a production shooter, the primary reason I switched to open is because of Tomasie telling me how much more solid it would make the rest of my game. He was completely correct.

I personally highly recommend at least some cross training with a dot to any shooter I talk to about it, regardless of their skill level. D to GM.

[Strick]

I don't know, there are a lot of top level guys that were primarily open shooters at one point that consistently perform well today in iron sighted divisions. JJ, Max, Travis, Shane, Chris, and others. How many rounds have you put through a dot gun in your career out of curiosity? There are clearly some glaring differences in open, but I don't think shooting open will negatively impact your ability to shoot other divisions assuming you are skilled enough to approach shooting each division by its own merits.

What I do know is using a dot gives you an amazing amount of feedback about what the gun is doing at all times - I think that is extremely useful information that applies to any division you shoot. It also lets you focus highly on other aspects of the game since the rather large aspect of sight alignment is gone. There certainly may be a small lag time when switching back and forth to get yourself accustomed to using the sights again, but I think its something any sufficiently skilled shooter should be able to do.

Back when I was a production shooter, the primary reason I switched to open is because of Tomasie telling me how much more solid it would make the rest of my game. He was completely correct.

I personally highly recommend at least some cross training with a dot to any shooter I talk to about it, regardless of their skill level. D to GM.

I think this makes some sense but I think for the situation Nick is in it would not works as well. Switching for a month or 2 to work on a few holes he sees in his game and then back to be in top form for Prod nationals seems to be his goal. Using Open for that, it would take a month just to get comfortable with a dot. Making the switch for a season, I could see some merit in it for sure.

As I posted elsewhere I only caution the switch to limited major to work on being more aggressive in areas and still having a focus on winning/being at the top. That can cause some issues in a few months when switching back to minor scoring. There is just a different level of shot placement required to score well.

[Jake Di Vita]

I think this makes some sense but I think for the situation Nick is in it would not works as well. Switching for a month or 2 to work on a few holes he sees in his game and then back to be in top form for Prod nationals seems to be his goal. Using Open for that, it would take a month just to get comfortable with a dot. Making the switch for a season, I could see some merit in it for sure.

As I posted elsewhere I only caution the switch to limited major to work on being more aggressive in areas and still having a focus on winning/being at the top. That can cause some issues in a few months when switching back to minor scoring. There is just a different level of shot placement required to score well.

For a GM level shooter, it will not take a month to get comfortable with a dot. Not even close. One dry fire session would probably do it. I'm also not saying to do it in the middle of the season while you are prepping for nats. This is something I would probably do during the off season if I wasn't switching to open for a full season. A month or two to put some serious work in, then back to your home division to work on applying what you've learned.

I also don't think there is a huge difference in shot placement required at all. You can't drop points in Prod because minor. You can't drop points in Open because all your competition has the same equipment advantages as you. A slight difference, sure. But certainly that is something that a skilled shooter would know and acknowledge with the division he was shooting. Personally, I don't think that applies to this conversation at all because we are talking about the dot as a training tool, not about how you win matches in different divisions. Just because you have a dot doesn't mean you need to shoot sloppy. If you live in a minor scored division, do your cross training with minor scoring as well. Nothing wrong with that.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Gooldylocks]

I think this makes some sense but I think for the situation Nick is in it would not works as well. Switching for a month or 2 to work on a few holes he sees in his game and then back to be in top form for Prod nationals seems to be his goal. Using Open for that, it would take a month just to get comfortable with a dot. Making the switch for a season, I could see some merit in it for sure.

As I posted elsewhere I only caution the switch to limited major to work on being more aggressive in areas and still having a focus on winning/being at the top. That can cause some issues in a few months when switching back to minor scoring. There is just a different level of shot placement required to score well.

For a GM level shooter, it will not take a month to get comfortable with a dot. Not even close. One dry fire session would probably do it. I'm also not saying to do it in the middle of the season while you are prepping for nats. This is something I would probably do during the off season if I wasn't switching to open completely. A month or two to put some serious work in, then back to your home division to work on applying what you've learned.

I also don't think there is a huge difference in shot placement required at all. You can't drop points in Prod because minor. You can't drop points in Open because all your competition has the same equipment advantages as you. A slight difference, sure. But certainly that is something that a skilled shooter would know and acknowledge with the division he was shooting. Personally, I don't think that applies to this conversation at all because we are talking about the dot as a training tool, not about how you win matches in different divisions. Just because you have a dot doesn't mean you need to shoot sloppy.

I totally agree with you Jake. I learned more about shot calling and entries/exits in the first month of switching to open than I did in probably the entire year previously worth of shooting my limited gun.

I don't claim to be a GM either, but I can switch back and forth between irons and the dot pretty much at will, it takes more effort to get my index right than anything else.

And I once again agree that shooting alphas in open is still super important. That is what I have been struggling with a lot lately haha. I have been getting beat locally because he shoots more points than I do, even though our times are broadly similar.

[Strick]

I think this makes some sense but I think for the situation Nick is in it would not works as well. Switching for a month or 2 to work on a few holes he sees in his game and then back to be in top form for Prod nationals seems to be his goal. Using Open for that, it would take a month just to get comfortable with a dot. Making the switch for a season, I could see some merit in it for sure.

As I posted elsewhere I only caution the switch to limited major to work on being more aggressive in areas and still having a focus on winning/being at the top. That can cause some issues in a few months when switching back to minor scoring. There is just a different level of shot placement required to score well.

For a GM level shooter, it will not take a month to get comfortable with a dot. Not even close. One dry fire session would probably do it. I'm also not saying to do it in the middle of the season while you are prepping for nats. This is something I would probably do during the off season if I wasn't switching to open completely. A month or two to put some serious work in, then back to your home division to work on applying what you've learned.

I also don't think there is a huge difference in shot placement required at all. You can't drop points in Prod because minor. You can't drop points in Open because all your competition has the same equipment advantages as you. A slight difference, sure. But certainly that is something that a skilled shooter would know and acknowledge with the division he was shooting. Personally, I don't think that applies to this conversation at all because we are talking about the dot as a training tool, not about how you win matches in different divisions. Just because you have a dot doesn't mean you need to shoot sloppy. If you live in a minor scored division, do your cross training with minor scoring as well. Nothing wrong with that.

1 dryfire session would not get you comfortable enough with a dot to use Open as a way to tune up your production game, especially if you have never shot one before. Remeber we are talking about using a high mag capacity division with major scoring as a way to work on specific parts of the Prod game (and wanting to stay competitive).

Shot placement is huge. If you are shooting limited and come into an array of all partials you are not going to aim in the middle of that tight alpha for both shots, you aim in an area where you could get the alpha but maybe a charlie taking the possible hardcover or NS hit out of play. This also allows for faster shots. That is not how the Production game is since you are losing twice as many points. If that wasn't the case then I wouldn't see every day how limited minor sucks. Yes you have to shoot points but getting 90-95% of the points in major is easier than shooting minor. That is the point I am trying to make, not that you can just hose a target, you have to be accurate just not as precise.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Strick

[Jake Di Vita]

1 dryfire session would not get you comfortable enough with a dot to use Open as a way to tune up your production game, especially if you have never shot one before. Remeber we are talking about using a high mag capacity division with major scoring as a way to work on specific parts of the Prod game (and wanting to stay competitive).

How much proficiency with a dot do you think you need to be able to notice things with it you don't notice with irons? As soon as you can modify your index so the dot is where you point (just like your irons), you can use it for drills and learn a lot. It don't take more than one dry fire session for someone with a decent index to adjust it. At least it doesn't for me or any of the decent shooters I know who have done it time and time again. You might be talking about high mag capacity and major, I certainly am not. Shoot Open 10 minor for all I care. I am talking about the dot and it's use as a training tool. Period. Full stop.

Shot placement is huge. If you are shooting limited and come into an array of all partials you are not going to aim in the middle of that tight alpha for both shots, you aim in an area where you could get the alpha but maybe a charlie taking the possible hardcover or NS hit out of play. This also allows for faster shots. That is not how the Production game is since you are losing twice as many points. If that wasn't the case then I wouldn't see every day how limited minor sucks. Yes you have to shoot points but getting 90-95% of the points in major is easier than shooting minor. That is the point I am trying to make, not that you can just hose a target, you have to be accurate just not as precise.

Yes, shot placement is huge...in both divisions. And thank you for your statement that shooting points is easier with major than minor - that was very enlightening. I'm very well aware of how important points are in shooting, I've both lost and won several 14+ HF stages on points. I don't know why you are talking about Limited minor all of a sudden. Once again, where did I say you had to hose targets to learn anything in Open? Actually I specifically said:

"Just because you have a dot doesn't mean you need to shoot sloppy. If you live in a minor scored division, do your cross training with minor scoring as well. Nothing wrong with that."

If your primary goal is improving your Prod game, who cares where you finish in Open. You aren't trying to win Open division, you are trying to become a better and more well rounded shooter. How is that going to be a problem in cross training for Production? What is the purpose of this endeavor? Is it to win multiple divisions whenever you want or is it to use other platforms to improve the performance of a specific division? To me, the goal is the latter. That doesn't require you go full bore "I'm an Open shooter now so I hose shit and never reload".

For that matter, you don't even need to shoot matches to get the benefit from this. Hell, we have Carry Optics now - go shoot that instead of Open and you'll get the same benefits.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jake Di Vita

[Strick]

1 dryfire session would not get you comfortable enough with a dot to use Open as a way to tune up your production game, especially if you have never shot one before. Remeber we are talking about using a high mag capacity division with major scoring as a way to work on specific parts of the Prod game (and wanting to stay competitive).

How much proficiency with a dot do you think you need to be able to notice things with it you don't notice with irons? As soon as you can modify your index so the dot is where you point (just like your irons), you can use it for drills and learn a lot. It don't take more than one dry fire session for someone with a decent index to adjust it. At least it doesn't for me or any of the decent shooters I know who have done it time and time again. You might be talking about high mag capacity and major, I certainly am not. Shoot Open 10 minor for all I care. I am talking about the dot and it's use as a training tool. Period. Full stop.

Shot placement is huge. If you are shooting limited and come into an array of all partials you are not going to aim in the middle of that tight alpha for both shots, you aim in an area where you could get the alpha but maybe a charlie taking the possible hardcover or NS hit out of play. This also allows for faster shots. That is not how the Production game is since you are losing twice as many points. If that wasn't the case then I wouldn't see every day how limited minor sucks. Yes you have to shoot points but getting 90-95% of the points in major is easier than shooting minor. That is the point I am trying to make, not that you can just hose a target, you have to be accurate just not as precise.

Yes, shot placement is huge...in both divisions. And thank you for your statement that shooting points is easier with major than minor - that was very enlightening. I'm very well aware of how important points are in shooting, I've both lost and won several 14+ HF stages on points. I don't know why you are talking about Limited minor all of a sudden. Once again, where did I say you had to hose targets to learn anything in Open? Actually I specifically said:

"Just because you have a dot doesn't mean you need to shoot sloppy. If you live in a minor scored division, do your cross training with minor scoring as well. Nothing wrong with that."

If your primary goal is improving your Prod game, who cares where you finish in Open. You aren't trying to win Open division, you are trying to become a better and more well rounded shooter. How is that going to be a problem in cross training for Production? What is the purpose of this endeavor? Is it to win multiple divisions whenever you want or is it to use other platforms to improve the performance of a specific division? To me, the goal is the latter. That doesn't require you go full bore "I'm an Open shooter now so I hose shit and never reload".

For that matter, you don't even need to shoot matches to get the benefit from this. Hell, we have Carry Optics now - go shoot that instead of Open and you'll get the same benefits.

So.....did you even read his link?

[Jake Di Vita]

Yes....what does that have to do with the conversation we are having at the moment?

[Strick]

Yes....what does that have to do with the conversation we are having at the moment?

I thought that was clear.

I will say it simply. Shooting major (and wanting to stay competitive in a major scored division as indicated) to train for Prod, which is the stated division he wants to improve, can (notice I didn't say will) cause issues.

If you don't see a difference in how a shooter being scored major approaches shots certain targets compared to one shooting minor then I doubt I can explain it to you. If there was not a difference in how you approach shots on those certain targets then where are all the open minor and limited minor shooters?

[Jake Di Vita]

I will try to respond simply. Shoot minor instead. Or just use it in practice and act like you are shooting minor.

Ultimately the idea with this is using different equipment to up your game. You don't need to place the rules on it that you are. I've said it half a dozen times now, the shooter in your example can easily use minor scoring which wipes out the argument you are making. Or once again, Carry Optics can be an avenue to use the dot under a similar ruleset as Production. What is your argument against that?

[Strick]

I will try to respond simply. Shoot minor instead. Or just use it in practice and act like you are shooting minor.

Ultimately the idea with this is using different equipment to up your game. You don't need to place the rules on it that you are. I've said it half a dozen times now, the shooter in your example can easily use minor scoring which wipes out the argument you are making. Or once again, Carry Optics can be an avenue to use the dot under a similar ruleset as Production. What is your argument against that?

I agree but they aren't my rules and he indicates that he wants to shoot major. I think there are great skills to learned in limited and open that always shooting Prod you don't ever think about but would be a huge benefit. I just think one should be careful doing so under major pf scoring.

[Dr Mitch]

I shot SS for the first time this weekend, even though I am interested in just focusing on Production. There were some interesting insights, in that I was really gripping the gun well, only shooting when sights were there, fierce dedication to stage plan due to low capacity, making every shot count.

It's funny how you think you are hanging it all together, and then step into a different mode and find out there was something lacking before. The grip issue really reminded me of CHA-LEE talking about switching to bushing guns into order to force a good grip.

[LeviSS]

Nick...what are you going to be shooting? Are you gonna stick with a DA/SA gun? Still using g a production legal holster or race holster?

I was just curious if you are trying to keep things otherwise consistent with production.

[ny32182]

I am shooting a Tanfo Limited (short Limited gun, single action only). Yes I am still using my production gear. So ergonomically it is very similar.

I've got the gear pretty much nailed down at this point; might make a couple minor tweaks but it is very close to where I want it now.

I do have a DAA Racemaster mag carrier on the way, as I'm hoping it will be a bit more stable with a much heavier 20rd mag in it.