Another .40 Cal Crimp Question.

[Cuz]

I'm trying to determine how much crimp to apply to a .40 cal. I'm using 165 gr. RNFP West Coast Copper coated bullet. Seated to 1.120 oal. I thought I had a good crimp but when I cycled it thru my Para P16.40 Limited LDA a couple of times the OAL was 1.095.

As a test I took a new Federal 135 gr Hydrashock from a fresh box and the loaded round measured 1.125. The crimp looked decent so I put it in a mag and cycled it thru twice and it measured 1.096. I cycled it twice more and then it measured 1.058.

I guess I'm wondering if this is normal? If oal is so important in the .40 cal then what's up with these Federal Hydrashock rounds? I know my Para has a stiff spring but I don't know what weight it is since I just bought the gun last month.

While I'm asking questions, can someone tell me how dangerous it is to extend the OAL a bit? When I seat the West Coast 165 gr RNFP to 1.120 as recommended it looks like it's seated past the base and the edge of the case is up where the bullet starts to truncate. Is this normal?

I've been loading .45 and .38 spcl for the past 5 years, but I'm just getting started loading .40s. In fact I'm just trying to get the dies setup in my Dillon 550B and that's what is generating all these questions. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to pick a powder but I think I've reduced it down to either Power Pistol or Tightgroup after reading thru lots of posts here.

Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

LC.

[Jeeper]

If you are getting setback then I would bet you are expanding too much. It usually isnt from a lack of crimp. The neck tension should hold the bullet in sufficiently.

[DaG]

Start @ .423 with your crimp. At that # you are basically taking the bell out of the case mouth. If you are going to use light bullets, I would stick with Titegroup. I have had good results with TG and 165 JHP's out of MY GUN. If you are loading for the Para, I would try 1.175. Alot of shooters if not most load as long as the mag and or gun will allow. Just my 02 cents. Hope it helps

DaG

[Cuz]

If you are getting setback then I would bet you are expanding too much.  It usually isnt from a lack of crimp.  The neck tension should hold the bullet in sufficiently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you say expanding too much are you talking about the bell at the top of the case or the actual expansion die? I just rec'd new .40 dies from Dillon and I remember reading on this forum that Dillon had a problem with expanding dies but that it was fixed. Since I bought my dies from them last month I am hoping I've got a fixed expander. Do you know what the expander diameter should be?

Thanks for the response.

[Cuz]

If you are getting setback then I would bet you are expanding too much.  It usually isnt from a lack of crimp.  The neck tension should hold the bullet in sufficiently.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I just measured my expanding die. It's .497

If this is the expanding die that comes from Dillon isn't everyone having this problem? Does someone else make an expander that I can drop into the dillon powder measure die?

[Cuz]

Start @ .423 with your crimp.  At that # you are basically taking the bell out of the case mouth.  If you are going to use light bullets, I would stick with Titegroup.  I have had good results with TG and 165 JHP's out of MY GUN.  If you are loading for the Para, I would try 1.175.    Alot of shooters if not most load as long as the mag and or gun will allow.  Just my 02 cents.  Hope it helps

DaG

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

.423 is what I get coming out of the seating die!

Is the 165 a "light" bullet? I think I'll be shooting a 180 or 185 gr primarily. I made the mistake of buying 500 of the 165 gr so I figure I'd use them to learn how to load the .40 and consider it practice before buying some 180 gr. I just loaded one out to 1.168 and crimped the sucker down tight to .421 and cycled it thru the Para. It dropped to 1.152. I also noticed a pretty good ding in the bulley nose. Any idea what spring weight comes in a Para 16.40 LDA? It's very stiff.

[kevin c]

I've been told by professional reloaders that even factory ammo will shorten if cycled through a semiauto handgun, and that repeated cycling may continue to shorten the round. For that reason I've been advised to rotate the rounds chambered in my personal sidearms, and to shoot it up and replace it periodically.

That being said, I guess that your experience with the Hydroshoks isn't atypical, and that Federal and other commercial manufacturers may be taking that into account when they developed the recipes for their ammo. This surely applies to the ammo we make ourselves, as well. I've seen rounds that I've made that have shortened visibly after being in a feed ramp jam/misfeed, for instance, and, while I haven't taken a caliper to them, perhaps the normally feeding rounds I make do the same to a lesser degree.

The forty is a high pressure round, and, especially in the days of the 175 PF, handloaded forty could be VERY high pressure. Even now, with the PF down to 165, some handloads are "hot" in the sense that they are at, perhaps even above the 35,000 psi SAAMI limit. Being cautious about pressure is sensible. Minimizing set back makes sense to me.

Increasing crimp may not do much to decrease setback, though. My understanding is the same as Jeeper's - it's the binding of the inside of the case wall that holds the bullet in place, not the crimp. Crimping into the sides of the bullet is, IIRC, mainly for revolvers. If the case doesn't hold the bullet well, it may be cracked, not resized properly, or (though not in my own limited experience) improperly expanded.

SAAMI maximum OAL for the .40 is 1.135", so you could go 15 thousandths longer with those 165's you are using, or even longer, if you don't mind the extra long lipstick look. FWIW, most IPSC shooters using forty load long for 180's and 200's. I haven't loaded the lower weight bullets much, so I can't say what the trend is for that.

[kevin c]

(Sorry if this is out of sequence - you reposted while I was typing my last post on this thread.)

165 and 155 are lighter weights that some are shooting. The recoil impulse is quick and sharp, as opposed to a somewhat slower "push" with the heavier 180 and 200 grain bullets, all being loaded to major PF. Some are using the lighter bullets for minor PF in .40 caliber Production guns.

I have two stock Para forty's, one of which is an LDA. On my homemade recoil spring tester (qualified as such not to brag, but to plead an amateur's gadget's possible inaccuracy ), the stock recoil springs, which are virtually new, come out to 18# in one and 16# in the other. They are now resprung to 14# for Limited Major, and 11# for Production Minor.

The expander die on my SDB is .398", this after 100,000 rounds loaded, and post initial polishing done not to decrease the diameter, but to decrease sticking of the die in the case on the ram downstroke. I have no idea what it was originally, and have no basis of comparison to tell you whether the measurement is high, low or the norm for Dillon's dies. But if you are getting almost 100 thousandths more than I am, either we are not measuring the dies the same way or one of the two of us has a screwy (or worn) die.

What I am getting from your posts above, both the original and the followup posts, is that you are finding the same amount of round shortening on repeated cycling of handloads and factory rounds, and that your crimp is normal at the nominal .423".

On reflection, I'm not sure that what you are finding is actually out of the ordinary. Still, it might be worth calling Dillon to ask just what the diameter of the powder die expander should be.

Kevin C.

[Cuz]

(Sorry if this is out of sequence - you reposted while I was typing my last post on this thread.)

What I am getting from your posts above, both the original and the followup posts, is that you are finding the same amount of round shortening on repeated cycling of handloads and factory rounds, and that your crimp is normal at the nominal .423".

On reflection, I'm not sure that what you are finding is actually out of the ordinary. Still, it might be worth calling Dillon to ask just what the diameter of the powder die expander should be.

Kevin C.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the input. I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm worried about the fact that the bullets compress when I cycle them into my chamber. The bullet receeds from just one cycling. My concern is that before I purchased the .40 caliber dies for my press I spent more than a week pouring thru the posts on this awesome site to read as much as I could. The most resounding topic I've come away with is that the .40 loaded to major is almost a dangerous load and that it's critical that the oal be exact. If my rounds are compressing when they get loaded into the chamber I end up with a "variable" to the loading equation that scares me.

I don't expect that my rounds should be compressing so I'm not sure what to do. I did call Dillon today and they want me to resize a handful of cases and measure the diameter for them, then expand them and do the same. I originally called them to see about replacing the expander funnel but they want me to check some other stuff because they felt it could be my sizing die rather than the expander. I don't have any other factory ammo handy to test it it also compresses.

As for the springs, I have a new 16 lb spring in my gold cup and this is significantly heavier so I'm guessing I have the 18 lb you told me about.

Thanks again for your input.

Larry

[Cuz]

The expander die on my SDB is .398", this after 100,000 rounds loaded, and post initial polishing done not to decrease the diameter, but to decrease sticking of the die in the case on the ram downstroke. I have no idea what it was originally, and have no basis of comparison to tell you whether the measurement is high, low or the norm for Dillon's dies. But if you are getting almost 100 thousandths more than I am, either we are not measuring the dies the same way or one of the two of us has a screwy (or worn) die.

Kevin C.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oops, my bad. My expander die is .397, not .497. I mis-typed.

[Jasonub]

i never did measure crimp. i just visually check the loaded round. if it has a small ring "crimp" then its ok. never did have problems

[TDean]

I went through the same thing with my P14 years ago. The bullets, especially hard skinned Montana Gold, were setting back after chambering. I've since just ignored it. I load long anyway, so it's not a safety concern that the bullet sets back .010-.020". I'm still over the published OAL for that load.

Some think it's a geometry problem with the Para design. Bullets nose-diving into the feedramp causes more failures in these guns. Another solution is to tweak the feedlips on the mags to allow the cartridge to release earlier (keeping the nose high), or to load long so if the bullet does dive down, it'll hit higher up on the feed ramp and skip into the chamber.

One more bit of advice, get +10% mag springs. The added strength will keep the bullets more nose high as the breech face strips them out out of the mag.

Good luck.

[Cuz]

I went through the same thing with my P14 years ago.  The bullets, especially hard skinned Montana Gold, were setting back after chambering.  I've since just ignored it.  I load long anyway, so it's not a safety concern that the bullet sets back .010-.020".  I'm still over the published OAL for that load.

One more bit of advice, get +10% mag springs.  The added strength will keep the bullets more nose high as the breech face strips them out out of the mag.

Good luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the input, normally I would ignore the issue. What got me concerned was all the posts I've read here over the past week while trying to decide which powder to use. Ignoring it sounded dangerous. I called Dillon and they had me do a bunch of stuff:

-Measure a bunch of cases after sizing (most all were .395)

-Measure bullet diameter (all were .401)

-Measure expander (measured .397)

They were scratching their heads as to why the case wasn't holding the bullets, but they said they would hand select another expander if they could find one that measured less than .397 and send it to me to try.

The springs in my mags are the stiffer than any of my other guns. I don't think I'd get more than half the rounds in if I increased it.

Right about now I'm thinking of sending back my dillon dies and getting the Lee dies to get the Factory crimp die. I read here somewhere that Lee also made an undersized sizing die that does a full case sizing so I figure'd I'd get that too and then also try to make my expander smaller but I have no clue how to do that.

Everything I've read on this site tends to favor not using Dillons dies for the .40 caliber because the Lee's are a little better but also slower because they are not radiused. Although Dillon said the full length sizing die is not a good thing because it does something to the band at the base of the case.

Man, I've been loading and shooting .45 and .38 for 10 years without a problem. I'm starting to think the .40 caliber is not worth all this effort.

[Stumpnav]

Cuz,

Don't give up, the 40 is great. Its really not more finicky than anything else, we just ask it to do some things it wasn't origianlly designed for.

To my understanding, the Lee and EGW dies are mostly designed to fix what Glocks do to 40 brass. If you are having trouble keeping your bullets from setting back, then sizing the very bottom part of the case is not going to effect the setback.

I don't remember seeing it anywhere else in the thread, but have you tried different bullets. Maybe the ones you are using have some sort of film on them or were made slightly undersized, etc.

How many times has your brass been reloaded. If it has been reloaded too many times it can in effect work harden itself and lose the ability to retain the size you sized it to.

Before throwing in the towel I would try different brass, new if you can find some, and a different brand of bullet. If you do that and still have problems, you have ruled out components as the problem.

You could also shoot your reloads in another 40 to see if it is a problem with the gun. My P16s barrel would not let me load past about 1.18 until I got a smith to fix the problem.

[Cuz]

Cuz,

I don't remember seeing it anywhere else in the thread, but have you tried different bullets.

How many times has your brass been reloaded.

Before throwing in the towel I would try different brass, new if you can find some, and a different brand of bullet.

You could also shoot your reloads in another 40 to see if it is a problem with the gun. My P16s barrel would not let me load past about 1.18 until I got a smith to fix the problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stump,

I was considering the Lee full length sizer because it appears as though most of my brass comes from Glocks. None of my brass is new, but it looks like it's once fired. Funny thing at my range, there's a ton of .45 and .40 shooters that don't bother reloading. There is regularly an abundant supply of what appears to be once fired cases. Unfortunately most of the .40s are from Glocks. I have tried multiple brands including:

Speer (brass and nickle), Winchester, Federal, and two others I've never heard of. I did suggest to the Dillon rep that he send me a few bullets of a different brand but he said that wasn't necessary because all my bullets measured .401 which was right on.

I do have a Glock 23 that I can cycle the rounds through to see if they compress. Duhh, I can't believe I didn't think of trying that. Probably because I bought the Glock on a whim and don't like to shoot it so it's tucked away in the back corner of the safe where I sort of forgot about it. I don't want to give up on the .40, but I am thinking I should send the Dillon dies back and go with Lee since I expect that most of my brass will continue to come from the Glock shooters at my club. I'm waiting for the smaller expander from Dillon to see how that does. In the meantime maybe I'll buy a small quantity of new brass and different bullets to try. Thanks for the input.

-Cuz

[texasag93]

This whole topic was well documented somewhere in this forum. I had the same problems with my 40 reloads. I had two separate 40 belling/powder dies for my 550. One measured .398 the other was slightly smaller. I had one turned down to .393. It fixed all my bullet set back problems. I finish all loads with a Lee factory crimp die and have had no problems since! Wooohoooo! TXAG

[Cuz]

This whole topic was well documented somewhere in this forum.  I had the same problems with my 40 reloads.  I had two separate 40 belling/powder dies for my 550.  One measured .398 the other was slightly smaller.  I had one turned down to .393.  It fixed all my bullet set back problems.  I finish all loads with a Lee factory crimp die and have had no problems since!  Wooohoooo!  TXAG

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How did you turn it down to .393? Dillon is sending me one that measures .395 to try. I just did some testing with my Glock 23 and Para 16.40 with Factory loads.

Using either Federal Hydrashocks, or Winchester white box 180 gr rnfp anytime I cycle a round from the mag into the chamber it receeds about .005 each time. That's with the Para. This doesn't happen with the Glock. I tried cycling a round into the Glock 10 times and it always measures the same. I put it in the Para and cycle it once and it sets the bullet back .005.

Is this something I can compensate for by extending the OAL by .005 to compensate? My real concern is SAFETY. If I'm loading recipes from a loading manual that are calculated to give me Major power factors (I don't have a chrono) and the bullet receeds .005 am I creating a dangerous scenario?

As far as this being covered, I spent a week pouring over the various messages and did see lots of talk about it, but I don't recall finding a conclusive solution. I'm not saying there wasn't one, just that I read as much as I could find. I had no idea how much info is here. Plus, it just gets compounded because I always find myself going off on a tangent when I see other subjects that answer other questions I had. Thanks for the input. I also ordered a set of 4 Lee dies. I will use their full length sizing die and the factory crimp die. I guess I'll also use their seating die and just send the Dillon dies back. I've only had them a month so I might as well return them for credit. Man, I never had any issues with .45 or .38 reloads. Hope I get this figured out...

[Stumpnav]

Cuz,

Sounds like you have a gun problem and not a reload problem. See if you can find a good gunsmith in the area and have him check out your barrel. You might also want to give Para a call. Like I said before, to be able to shoot the bullets I want, I had to have the leade on the barrel pushed back a little.

[texasag93]

I can't find the topic that I posted more than a year ago either and I was the one who posted it. I had my gunsmith turn mine down. My bullets won't set back now even before I crimp them. I really don't "crimp" them, I just take out the bell with the Lee FCD. You could use my name for a search and read up on it. I had all kinds all measurements throughout the whole ordeal. The smaller powder die will definately help. TXAG

[Cuz]

I can't find the topic that I posted more than a year ago either and I was the one who posted it.  I had my gunsmith turn mine down.  My bullets won't set back now even before I crimp them.  I really don't "crimp" them, I just take out the bell with the Lee FCD.  You could use my name for a search and read up on it.  I had all kinds all measurements throughout the whole ordeal.  The smaller powder die will definately help.  TXAG

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the input. Actually Stump has a good point. It may be time for a call to the gunsmith. I'll wait til I receive the expander from Dillon to try it out. I ordered a set of 4 Lee dies in 40 caliber from Midway. They came in today, but somehow there was a screwup. The die set had 2 sizing dies and no seating die. I couldn't believe it. Fortunately Midway was very cooperative when I called them. They are sending out a new set and will refund my shipping charges to send these back. I do like dealing with Midway.

Cuz.

[texasag93]

You will get there. You will know it is right when the bullets won't set back before you crimp them. Try seating a bullet with your new die and pull it out of the press. Push nose of bullet against your bench with themb, see how much if any it sets back. Don't be afraid to push hard. If it doesn't move. Just use the FCD to smooth out the rough spots and you are GOLDEN! TXAG

[jjanglin]

Well guys, sometimes you need to do a little to your freebore in order to

keep your bullets from being pushed back= have your gunsmith use

a freebore reamer and extend the area in front of your chamber so the

bullets wont hit the rifleing or roughnees at the end of your chamber.

Jim anglin

Sailors custom Pistols

[Cuz]

You will get there.  You will know it is right when the bullets won't set back before you crimp them.  Try seating a bullet with your new die and pull it out of the press.  Push nose of bullet against your bench with themb, see how much if any it sets back.  Don't be afraid to push hard.  If it doesn't move.  Just use the FCD to smooth out the rough spots and you are GOLDEN!      TXAG

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the info, but I'm afraid it didn't work. I'm using the Lee sizing and crimping die, and the new powder funnel/expander from Dillon. After sizing, I took the expander and was able to slide it right into the case without any force. That tells me that the expander is smaller than whatever the sizing dies are sizing the brass down to. This was true regardless of if I used the Lee or Dillon Sizing die. Then, using varying amount of crimp, I had to crimp all the way down to .415 before the bullets would stop receeding into the case during chambering in the Para. At this rate of testing I'm going to use up all 500 rounds of the 165 gr bullets before I start shooting!!!

I guess my question now is if I should be concerned about crimping down to .415. Is it dangerous?

[texasag93]

I am using RCBS Carbide sizing, and seating dies, Dillon powder die(.393" OD) and a Lee Factory Crimp Die. The combo works well for me. I am at a loss. Sounds like the sizing die is a little to large. TXAG

[Wim]

Ditto for Lee factory crimp. And never had a problem with setback, even when I messed up and seated waaay to long , which would have caused it if anything... I think they are the bomb for autolaoders.