Help me make sense of the M&P accuracy issue.

[TacticalReload]

I'm also putting a lot of the blame on over-travel, I think. When dry firing the gun, I notice that there is a lot of sight movement after the break... the only other pistol I've seen with this much movement after the break is the SIG P232. I find that ramping up the speed makes everything ten times worse. There are a number of ways to get rid of it... the performance center model that I bought (almost specifically because of it) has an over-travel screw built into the frame. You could try that or glue / epoxy or put something inside the gun or modify the trigger bar or add a screw into the sear housing. There are probably a dozen different ways to do it. I find pre-travel to be annoying but over-travel to be detrimental to accuracy... especially if you're not pulling 100% straight back.

Glock triggers are nothing to write home about, but one thing that they are is reasonably consistent. M&P triggers are all over the place between different guns. My PC gun had a pretty nice trigger out of the box. My VTAC trigger is horrific. (It feels like there is a massive amount of overlap in the engagement of the sear and striker. I managed to stone it to make it lighter but now it's creepy.) I realize that there are different sears / striker blocks in those two guns, but I've tried about a half dozen other stock M&P triggers and there is definitely a lot of variation... not sure exactly why. I suspect it has something to do with tolerances in the parts combined with the easily bendable loop on the trigger bar. You might want to just get Apex parts and call it a day. If you're handy with modifying parts, you can probably tinker around with the stock sear / trigger bar / striker to improve things. Be prepared to buy spares, however.

The beavertail along with the grip angle on the M&P don't lend themselves well to the super-high grip you're describing. If you're trying to get the meat of your hand up and over the beavertail, you're not making good contact with the grip any more (unless you have extremely meaty hands). The Glock definitely allows a higher grip (to the point of slide bite if you're not careful).

As for the size of the group... like Brian mentioned, if you're okay with 3-4" at 25 yards benched, then the $$ for an Apex barrel might not be worth it for you. I'm in the same position with my VTAC. It groups around that size, but seems to throw an uncalled flyer every few rounds. I'm going to work on the trigger first to eliminate the chances of it being my fault and then see what happens. 3-4" at 25 yards isn't fantastic, but it's probably good enough to me that $200 to cut the group in half isn't worth the cost of admission. If the flyers are still there opening things up or if it gets worse as it wears in, I'll consider an Apex barrel like I put into my PC gun. (I'm actually wondering if the PVD coating on the VTAC is making parts fit a little tighter since the gun is still new.)

[munsonbw]

Thanks for the information, gang. While I would I do think I can make improvements to my technique that might/should improve my centering to the bull, I have also shot double action revolver triggers as well as a Taurus PT92 that had a ROUGH DA pull. No issues there getting shots to POA, margianal accuracy, but at least centered as expected. It certainly took more concentration and I was slow firing, but it is not as if I haven't shot a hard pulling trigger. This is something else and I really do think the overtravel is allowing the trigger pressure to release then stop again abruptly. And as you TR, speed made it a lot worse.

I see it as two ways: Spend a lot more time and ammo trying to improve and also rule out the need to drift the sights, or do the trigger job that will likely be coming at some point anyway. As much as I like a challenge, I also have limited time.

For me and for now, the 3-4" at 25 is good enough. While error is additive, I need to do a lot more work on the up close stuff in speed and splits to really need to worry much about a possible mike on a rare 25yd shot.

In terms of grip, I was referring to the support hand. Sorry about the vague description. I was really trying to get my forearm, hand and thumb all in a straight line and high up by the slide. Just felt like there was not enough to squeeze up there. It felt like trying to pick up a sheet of plywood by using only the palm of your hand and fingers to pinch.

[want2race]

I've seen 2" groups at 25 with a 9L, as well as 8" groups at 25 with an older standard gun. My current Pro is decent but still throws flyers that cause the groups to open up. I shoot 100gr and 105gr bullets at 1250-1300fps and the groups are just over 2 inches. Slower ammo was worse. Trigger is already done so that's not an issue. After searching for 2 minutes I found what I suspected. Dwell time. I may end up making a new locking block to fix that but for now I ordered the Apex gunsmith barrel to test.

[TacticalReload]

munson, if you can't get your support hand to fit with that extreme cant, then I say don't bother. If all the GM shooters all had one single, completely identical grip, maybe I'd say that there IS really only ONE way to grip a gun. However, everyone's hands are different. The guns are different. Body shape and shooting style are different. What works for Vogel on a Glock might not work for him on an M&P, let alone someone else on a different gun. It took me a long time to realize that the reason I could never get my support palm into the "pocket" created with the strong hand enough to actually make substantial contact with the grip panel was due to the fact that I was using too small grips / backstraps / etc. I don't have really meaty hands so I assumed that a medium backstrap would work, but I have longer fingers so it turns out that the larger works better. It takes a lot of experimentation -- and what "feels good" isn't always the best when it comes to performance. I personally find that the extreme grip angle of Glocks makes it more natural to cant the support hand that much -- since both wrists are kind of locked similarly. But with the more "natural" (for me, anyway) grip angle of the M&P makes me feel kind of lopsided if I do that... which means more tension in the forearm on the support side vs the strong side.

[munsonbw]

That makes sense, TR. I have been watching a few grip videos and I think I need to lock my joint tendons/muscles more. I find I think about it less when shooting and more when at the computer. Hmmmm.

Wow, want2race. Watched some of your videos on youtube. Impressive. Without opening a huge can of worms, do you find the really light bullets fast has more felt recoil than heavy bullets slow? I know I have a lot more to worry about than that now, but still am curious since it seems 147gr is the cat's meow these days.

[BrianKr]

Munson, you've got to try the different loads to see what suits you. It's not really a can of worms. It's just what someone prefers; there is no right or wrong to it. A fast bullet has a different feel to the recoil than a slow bullet. It's quite noticeable, at least to myself and others. The fast bullet has a sharp rap, and the slow bullet is more of a push.

My M&P never really did eject Minor PF brass with authority. But now with the new spring assembly, the 160 gr powderpuff loads and the fitted barrel our RO was talking to me and he told me that the brass just rolls out of my gun. It's reliable, that's the strange part.

[munsonbw]

I suppose that is always the case, Brian. You never know until you try. I plan to order up some 135 since that seems to be a popular middle ground.

Looks like the next thing is to get reading on spring setups. My vbob had no issues running light 45 loads, but it seems the M&P will need something on the order of a 13# recoil spring.

[swordfish]

Randy Lee has an excellent writeup on the Smith and Wesson forums:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/451019-accuracy-coming-apex-m-p-barrels.html

Wow, those guys are assholes.

[munsonbw]

I thought the same thing. Their loss.

[BrianKr]

I think I remember reading that thread. Yup, dittos. Randy makes a great product that works.

I'd check it, but Firefox doesn't appear to like links through this forum.

[TacticalReload]

Randy Lee has an excellent writeup on the Smith and Wesson forums:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/451019-accuracy-coming-apex-m-p-barrels.html

Wow, those guys are assholes.

Some people appear to almost married to a brand -- actually, worse than that... like their mom owns the company. You find that in the brand-specific forums. You combine that with the fact that some long-time members get to associating post count and membership length with some sort of authority and self-importance. I suppose some people are such omega males in their "real" lives that they like anonymously bossing around people online. The internet gives everyone an outlet to act like an a_-hole in ways that would not even be close to socially acceptable in real life. Fortunately, you see it a lot less here than elsewhere. You still run into it, but to not even close to same degree of intensity or frequency.

[thermobollocks]

On the one hand you have guys who have re-timed more worn N frames than I've had hot meals. On the other hand, you have guys who think anything made after 1970 is hot garbage. It's like anywhere else: Learn from what you can and ignore that which is not productive.

[munsonbw]

I have been reading a bit here and there on trigger jobs for the M&P. What is the consensus among those following this thread? I want to run (or at least I think I do...) SSP and Production, so no FSS trigger. So, either the Apex Duty/Carry or Competition trigger kit or Burwell job. I think at this point shipping my gun to Burwell is not likely to be the path. My dad has done some smithing, but he is 10 hours away. I am fairly competent at mechanical work and could probably pull it off, but maybe that is not so smart at this point? I think the Apex is the logical choice to get good trigger without getting hung up on the last 5% that a custom job would achieve. Do you agree? Most of the Apex info I have found is focused on dual purpose guns and the DCEAK wins. This is a competition and range gun, so then the Comp kit is the logical choice?

Thanks

ben

[TacticalReload]

Absolutely go with the competition kit if it's a competition gun. Depending on where your gun starts off (and they seem to start off in different places), you'll see more or less improvement; but it will definitely be an improvement. Remember however, that you already have an improved sear in your Pro gun. The geometry is not quite like the Apex sear, but it's better than (the MIM, I believe) sear in the standard M&P. A little stoning / polishing in the right places can smooth things up on the sear & trigger bar. I know my PC gun had a reshaped striker block that I don't think the Pro guns have. If you have a little patience, you can reshape and polish the stock one. At that point, you have the expensive parts of the Apex competition kit already taken care of. If you want to go further, you can simply by the Apex competition spring kit... I think it has the striker, sear, and trigger return springs (but not the striker block spring). At that point, you probably have 90% of the benefit of the full Apex kit at about 20% of the price. This is the route that I went with my PC gun. With the VTAC, I'm thinking I might go FSS and just deal with shooting ESP. At the very least, I'm going to get the full competition kit since the sear in that gun was kind of rough to start with and my tinkering isn't really leading to the feel I'm hoping for.

Keep in mind, though, that all these mods might help over-travel a bit, but it's not going to be as good as a dedicated over-travel mod. There are ways to address it internally and still keep the gun SSP and Production legal.

[want2race]

Basically same route I went. Here's a secret, use a Glock trigger return spring. Have to open one loop to fit over the trigger pin though. I use the stock striker spring as it's only a .25# reduction in pull with the lighter one. Not worth it for me. I made an overtravel block that goes into the sear housing and stops the trigger bar. I also move the loop, that actuates the sear, rearward. This moves the release point forward, like a fwd set sear. I do some other stuff to shorten the reset too. In the end I end up with a very nice trigger that cost nothing and breaks at nearly the same weight as my 1911's. I have lots of Glock springs from past trigger jobs on those.

[want2race]

Just like the 1911 hinge trigger, I should record people's first reaction to my M&P trigger. It's kind of funny because it happens all the time.

[TacticalReload]

W2R, have you broken a trigger return spring doing it that way? I think the reason S&W puts the little stuff inside their spring is because they were getting broken springs, and Glocks don't have it in there.

[want2race]

I haven't, but I only have about 2500 rounds on this one. iirc the Apex springs don't have the filler widget either. The Glock spring is a tad longer too, but I can work around that to save a buck.

[TacticalReload]

I never looked specifically, but I thought the Apex spring does have it. I definitely could be wrong, though.

[mpeltier]

This may be kinda long...sorry

I received my first MP9 in 2007. It was from the prize table at the Ft Benning 3-gun challenge. I really liked the feel and ergo's of that pistol but wasn’t happy with the accuracy. I had not shot it extensively for groups at this point it just didnt feel accurate, so I didn’t use it much in competition. I was using a tuned Para P18 9mm that was easily a 2" gun at 25 yards, so I continued with that. A few years later I happened across a MP9 Pro and bought it along with an MP45. I figured the PRO would surely be the ticket. I tried everything to get that pistol to group and with any ammo the best it would do was 5"-6" at 25 yds. I could pull out my Para and 2" or better was easy. I dug out the MP9 from Ft Benning and benched it. It was better but only very slightly at about 5". Tried the 45 next and it was about a 4" gun at 25 yds. I tried Apex parts, storm lake bbls and any tips I could muster on ammo but nothing made them better. I sold them and got a SIG X5 9mm. Superbly accurate but plagued with reliability issues. after three trips back to SIG it got sold. XDM 5.25 9mm was my next pistol. That thing was a great grouping gun. well under 2" at 25 yds and never a malfunction. I just couldn’t get used to the grip. I always missed the way the MP9 felt.

Fast-forward to 2015 and my place of employment switched from the Beretta 92F to the MP9. I had heard of the bbl twist change smith made and was anxious to see how ours would be (A fairly large sampling as well). They were all much better than any of my previous M&P's. I have always shot 250 scores (Max score) on our qualification course with the Beretta, but my qualification targets with the MP9 last year, and this year, are much tighter groups than I ever shot with the Beretta. Many of the other guys on my Team have had similar results. As soon as we made the switch I purchased one privately for my own use and it has benched with no mods 2-13/16" avg. at 25 yds. This I could live with. It gave me enough confidence in the platform to earlier this year take a gamble on a MP9L CORE Ported from the performance center, and subsequently sold the XDM 5.25. I installed an APEX Semi drop in bbl almost as soon as I received it. For two reasons, one was I wanted it as accurate as I could get it and I didn’t want a ported bbl for the new Cary Optic division. After a few hundred rounds of fooling around with both barrels and the optic, I shot it for groups, iron sighted, with both barrels. Factory barrel averaged 2-1/2" at 25 yds and the APEX Barrel averaged 1-3/8" at 25 yds. Neither of these two M&P's have any trigger work done other than what S&W provided. They are essentially box stock.

One thing I would like to note concerning an observation I’ve made on the bbl lock-up/unlock-up. There’s been some mention here and there of early unlocking issues and there is something to it. Randy Lee talks about it in one of his videos. On my earliest models when retracting the slide, just the most miniscule amount of slide movement and the barrel would start to drop out of battery. Compared to every other pistol I own this is waaaaaaay early. Both of my current M&P's the barrel stays locked to the slide for an amount very similar to other pistols I own. perhaps a 1/16" or so of slide movement.

[munsonbw]

Basically same route I went. Here's a secret, use a Glock trigger return spring. Have to open one loop to fit over the trigger pin though. I use the stock striker spring as it's only a .25# reduction in pull with the lighter one. Not worth it for me. I made an overtravel block that goes into the sear housing and stops the trigger bar. I also move the loop, that actuates the sear, rearward. This moves the release point forward, like a fwd set sear. I do some other stuff to shorten the reset too. In the end I end up with a very nice trigger that cost nothing and breaks at nearly the same weight as my 1911's. I have lots of Glock springs from past trigger jobs on those.

So if I understand your recipe you:

* stone and polish sear and trigger bar

* resahpe striker block

* Glock trigger return spring

Anything else? I am a DIY kind of guy and I like the idea of trying to do the work, but at the same time I have more projects than time these days...

[munsonbw]

W2R, have you broken a trigger return spring doing it that way? I think the reason S&W puts the little stuff inside their spring is because they were getting broken springs, and Glocks don't have it in there.

I may have it mistaken with another gun, but wasn't the stuff inside the spring to get rid of the cheap "sproing!" sound?

[want2race]

I have a gunsmith fit Apex barrel on back order. Can't wait to test it.

[want2race]

I had a chance to look at a Burwell worked gun. We do about the same thing but with different parts. He angles the striker foot, I reshape the sear to the older Apex sear profile. They've since went back to a "hooked" sear (as viewed from the side). I use a Glock armorer plate (the orange one) to check sear engagement too. It works, slides right in. lol. Flattening the trigger bar loop (that actuates the sear) will decrease trigger pull, but increases pull distance slightly (same principle as Glock minus vs stock disconnector but not as drastic). Craytex wheel everything, then polish. The overtravel stop was the most complicated but as I've read there are several ways to accomplish that. I wanted the break further forward, so the overtravel stop was needed. I could take pics I guess. Tactile reset can be done by bending the trigger bar (if you have an older model). Smith has since made improvements to that on newer guns. Don't over bend it as it will slow down trigger reset.

I crush the trigger and so far everything is still working.

[TacticalReload]

W2R, have you broken a trigger return spring doing it that way? I think the reason S&W puts the little stuff inside their spring is because they were getting broken springs, and Glocks don't have it in there.

I may have it mistaken with another gun, but wasn't the stuff inside the spring to get rid of the cheap "sproing!" sound?

It was added, as I understand it, to dampen vibrations and thus lengthen the life of the part. Perhaps this is more of an issue than it is in Glocks due to proximity to the chamber. Dunno exactly.

I had a chance to look at a Burwell worked gun. We do about the same thing but with different parts. He angles the striker foot, I reshape the sear to the older Apex sear profile. They've since went back to a "hooked" sear (as viewed from the side). I use a Glock armorer plate (the orange one) to check sear engagement too. It works, slides right in. lol. Flattening the trigger bar loop (that actuates the sear) will decrease trigger pull, but increases pull distance slightly (same principle as Glock minus vs stock disconnector but not as drastic). Craytex wheel everything, then polish. The overtravel stop was the most complicated but as I've read there are several ways to accomplish that. I wanted the break further forward, so the overtravel stop was needed. I could take pics I guess. Tactile reset can be done by bending the trigger bar (if you have an older model). Smith has since made improvements to that on newer guns. Don't over bend it as it will slow down trigger reset.

I crush the trigger and so far everything is still working.

Thanks for the idea of using the Glock plate... I didn't think of trying it, but it's good to know that it will fit. I was looking for a way to check sear / striker engagement since I suspect that this is the source of my woes while trying to reshape a stock MIM sear to improve on the trigger pull. As a side note to you and anyone else... have you noticed that the factory hinged trigger hangs up before the safety disengages when you run a lighter trigger pull (assuming people have kept the factory hinged trigger)? It's like the spring inside the trigger hinge is too strong when combined with a lighter pull... the trigger starts moving rearward before the hinge straightens out and the safety bump on the trigger gets hung up on the frame. At that point, the additional force applied to the trigger straightens out the hinge and it slip up into the frame and the trigger releases. This is highly annoying and happens every time I don't pull the very bottom of the trigger.

It looks like I'm going to have to go with an Apex trigger. It's a shame, too, because one of the things I really don't like about Glocks is how that safety lever on the trigger feels. Can anyone who is currently using the Apex trigger (polymer, FF, or aluminum) tell me if the safety lever fully retracts into the face of the trigger or if it sticks out like on the factory Glock trigger?

Munson, Burwell has a pretty good detailed process online that should probably be reviewed before attempting work. http://www.burwellguns.com/M&Ptriggerjob1.htm