Rimfire input

[Shootnjunky]

Ok here's the background, I have a stock Ruger lite 22/45 I bought for my wife and I have a s&w 41 performance center for myself with a Clark threaded 5.5 barrel.

I want to start shooting with my son and teaching him pistol basics and get in to some steel shooting. I'm tired of him playing video games.

I want to build us a couple of pistols we can compete with and can't decide if either of the models I have already are what I should get a second of and build from there, or should I get us 2 new Ruger lites or possibly buck marks?

I took him to the range Saturday and we shot them both and he liked the Ruger, but wants his own. We shoot red dots as I find it easier to focus on aiming on the target.

I'm willing to spend the money to get us setup correctly.

I'm new to the competitive pistol arena.

Thanks in advance

[Tom E]

I want to start shooting with my son and teaching him pistol basics and get in to some steel shooting. I'm tired of him playing video games.

I want to build us a couple of pistols we can compete with and can't decide if either of the models I have already are what I should get a second of and build from there, or should I get us 2 new Ruger lites or possibly buck marks?

Ruger Lites or Buckmarks are both good choices. I shoot NSSF Rimfire Challenge with Ruger Lites because they're light and I like its' grip angle best. There's lots of stuff available for both to get a set-up you like.

[Shootnjunky]

I want to start shooting with my son and teaching him pistol basics and get in to some steel shooting. I'm tired of him playing video games.

I want to build us a couple of pistols we can compete with and can't decide if either of the models I have already are what I should get a second of and build from there, or should I get us 2 new Ruger lites or possibly buck marks?

Ruger Lites or Buckmarks are both good choices. I shoot NSSF Rimfire Challenge with Ruger Lites because they're light and I like its' grip angle best. There's lots of stuff available for both to get a set-up you like.

I will have to look into that and see if any of the nssf stuff is close to here.

What upgrades have you done to your lites?

[Tom E]

I will have to look into that and see if any of the nssf stuff is close to here.

What upgrades have you done to your lites?

NSSF Rimfire Challenge is fun. I have more access to it than I do Steel Challenge plus you shoot stages no one has been practicing for years.

I have two Lites that are duplicates except one has a stainless comp and is sighted an inch high at 25 feet for bowling pins. It's a back-up gun at steel matches.

Tandemkross: smooth Victory trigger, Kanewolf Slingshot Kit, mag base pads

Mags prepped

Rimedge: thumb rest and C-more mount

C-more with 16 minute dot module and Limcat glare shield

Volquartsen: MKII hammer and bushing, sear, disconnector, MKII competition bolt, mainspring housing with std spring,

Tactical Solutions extractor

Powers Custom A2 firing pin

Pachmayr 1911 grips trimmed to fit

MaddMacs #2245L013 comp, aluminum or stainless depending...

Barrel crown cut to 11 degrees

LCI removed, slot left open

Weighs 29 oz with aluminum comp, w/out mag

I like how they turned out. They swing fast, have little dot movement, and are extremely reliable which is a bigger deal than many realize..

The downside is they don't leave me any excuses...

.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Tom E

[Shootnjunky]

Thanks for the details.

I'll probably pick up another lite and do some of the upgrades you listed.

If others have input please share

[Nimitz]

Browning Buckmark with TacSol upgrades

[zzt]

Your least expensive approach would be to buy another Lite, add a Volquartsen trigger kit and fit an effective comp. You can get a dead flat shooting pistol with the right comp and ammo.

If you are willing to spend the money Tom E did, you are better off starting with a Buckmark Camper. I had problems with Ruger based race guns and gave up on them. My Buckmark has a sweet 2 lb trigger job, TacSol fluted, threaded barrel and extended mag release, custom comp, Picatinny rail with Burris FF3 and five mags with Alchin baseplates. It cost just under $1000 total and runs 100% with CCI ammo (my pref).

[Shootnjunky]

what comp is considered effective?

[zzt]

One buddy ordered the comp recommended for the Lite from MaddMax Tactical. If you get a good grip on the gun, it shoots dead flat with the Blaser 22s he was shooting. I had MM custom make one for me for my Buckmark.

In general, you want the ports to be small so the gas jets up with enough force to keep the muzzle down. IMO, there must be baffles between each row of ports and the hole the bullet passes through should be as small as possible. I use 40gr MiniMags in my Buckmark. It isn't dead flat. I can see the dot jiggle a little when I fire.

[photoracer]

I have both Ruger and Browning open race guns. Started with the Buckmarks in about 2010 and added a Ruger Mk III in 2015. Common brands and models of parts include:

Bear Cave 90 degree C-More red dot mounts

C-More red dots w/16 MOA dot modules

Tactical Solutions alloy barrels (Br) and upper receiver w/barrels (Ru)

Allchin compensators

Hogue G-10 grips

TandemKross extended magazine basepads

Custom thumbrests of my own design

Differences are:

Browning has a slide racker of my own design while the Ruger uses a Majestic Arms bolt racker (same functionality).

Brownings are early to mid 90's Standard model frames while the Ruger has a new alloy Volquartsen frame.

Both shoot fine although I am primarily shooting the Ruger (actually called a FrankenRuger these days) because the Luger grip angle allows the barrel to point higher naturally which gives a slightly faster first shot than anything using the 1911 grip angle (based on testing from BJ) from the low ready position.

Edited March 14, 2016 by photoracer

[Shootnjunky]

One buddy ordered the comp recommended for the Lite from MaddMax Tactical. If you get a good grip on the gun, it shoots dead flat with the Blaser 22s he was shooting. I had MM custom make one for me for my Buckmark.

In general, you want the ports to be small so the gas jets up with enough force to keep the muzzle down. IMO, there must be baffles between each row of ports and the hole the bullet passes through should be as small as possible. I use 40gr MiniMags in my Buckmark. It isn't dead flat. I can see the dot jiggle a little when I fire.

what are the opinions on the tacsol paclite comp?

[zzt]

The TacSol comp is worthless IMO. You want all the gasses directed up to counter upward barrel movement. The only effects the TacSol and the many other similar "comps" have is reduced felt recoil (but the same barrel movement) and increased sound. That helps shot timers register.

[photoracer]

I agree. The TacSol/VQ multi-hole symmetric comps are good for accuracy but lousy for recoil and muzzle flip and since accuracy inside 35 yards (Steel Challenge) is not a big deal while muzzle control and transition times are you need a comp with lots of or big ports pointing up. As for timer issues rimfire pistols usually don't have a problem, but rimfire rifles do.

Edited March 15, 2016 by photoracer

[Dwight Stearns]

The other issue with comps with small ports is cleaning. .22's are notorious for leading up comps. More ports means more ports to clean.

[zzt]

The comps will not lead up if you use copper plated bullets. Even using large port comps like the CW Accessories, 200 Fed Automatch AM-22 lead bullets will half clog the first port. Yet there will be no leading if you use MiniMags. My custom comp has a combination of small holes and small ports. I have no idea how many rounds of MiniMags or Aguila plated I've put through it, but it's a lot. I've never cleaned it, because I've never had to. I put some Kroil on a Q-Tip and wipe the flats of the ports, the holes and as much of the bottom of the chambers as I can reach. Even the powder residue doesn't seem to build up. The gray stuff you can see wipes off with the Q-Tip.

[Dwight Stearns]

Some of us don't have unlimited supplies (read money) of mini-mags to use in practice and matches. The granddaughter will go through around 6000 rounds in practice pistol alone. Gotta use the cheap stuff for practice and save the MM's for match.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Dwight Stearns

[zzt]

That's exactly what I did Dwight. I either removed the comp and shot without, or put one of the three other comps I don't care about on.

[dvc4you]

I am looking for the same and was wondering about the Volkquartsen Scorpion, it is 1,300.- but it seems to have most of the mods done...

Edited March 16, 2016 by dvc4you

[zzt]

I bought a Scorpion. Their quality control is not so good, so getting one that is truly race ready is problematic. Volquartsen says they don't make them that way. I sent mine back for several problems. They replaced the bolt, the safety and the barrel. They did not fix my other complaints. Mags would not drop free, even though there was the mag ejector setup at the base of the grip. They also were not able (or willing) to remove the truly awful creep in the trigger. Operation of the safety was so light it pfter engaged by itself while shooting. I sold the pistol for a huge loss.

Here is my opinion on what best to do if you are considering a Scorpion. Buy the upper and put it on a Mark III frame with all the extraneous safety stuff removed. The second barrel they send was a real tack driver. The comp was moderately effective. Warning, the pins locating the comp are not retained in the comp. If you are not careful they will drop on the ground and you will have to hunt for them.

IMO, a better solution would be to forgo Volquartsen anything, except possible their trigger kit for a Ruger. That at least seems to work out about 50% of the time.

As i said earlier, having gone the Ruger route, I moved to a Buckmark. The fluted TacSol barrel on my Buckmark would handily outshoot the first Vol Scorpion barrel, but not the second. My TacSol barrel and both of my buddies (one on a Ruger, the other on a Buckmark) will shoot 10 rounds into one very small hole at 15 yards. The second Vol barrel would put 5 rounds into the same hole at 15. The first one would not. Plus the feed ramp was machined improperly so rounds would not feed more than half the time. Scorpion barrels with a comp, even the 4.5" are heavy and slow to transition.

You can purchase and then upgrade a Ruger or Buckmark with everything conceivable for just under $1000, including mags and baseplates, and have a race gun that runs 100%. If you want something different and are willing to spend $1300, buy a 1911 lower with a magwell and put a top notch 22 conversion unit on it. You will end up with a combo that shoots as well and as accurately as anything else, and benefit with lightening fast mag changes that are quicker than you can get with a Ruger or Buckmark.

[photoracer]

Stick with a Ruger or a Browning you will be happier. My first open rimfire pistol was my late wife's safe queen, a 1994 Buckmark, which I built into a race gun in 2009. In a span of 18 months from 2011 to 2012 it ran thru 49 straight matches without a single failure of any kind, not even a dud round (the string ended when I loaned it to a top junior at the time, Rosalie Hoyle, at a club level match and she preceded to stovepipe a round). These days after around 50k rounds since 2009 its no longer perfect by my standards at least. Yesterday I ran a full box of Fed AM22 (325 rds.) thru both the Buckmark and my FrankenRuger each at my backyard Pendulum stage. Buckmark had 10 rounds that failed while the Ruger had only 1. 8 of the Buckmark rounds went off when rotated 180 degrees from the first mark and the single Ruger failed round did also (the other 2 rounds failed at 4 different locations, true duds). Sometimes that is just bad QC at the factory and sometimes its a light strike issue. About a 3% failure rate compared to a .3% failure rate, neither being particularly bad but only the Ruger in this case was close to perfect and you really don't know what you are going to get out of any random box of ammo. Using what I consider second tier ammo. And like Dwight says I only use CCI ammo in matches that are important. However CCI quality was degraded also during the ammo crunch.

[photoracer]

As for my FrankenRuger I built it from scratch after BJ told me of his timer findings compared to other rimfire setups. Bought a VQ MK III alloy lower receiver and mated it to a TacSol upper (1 shim needed). Put a stock Ruger bolt in it because I don't like the pinball type rackers which in this case is built into their competition bolt (Majestic Arms racker added). Trigger was about 2# so I have yet to touch the trigger adjustments. Added the same parts as on the Buckmark where available. Had to relearn the annoying disassembly routine of the Ruger but I can live with that. Runs fine so far.

[Shootnjunky]

love the information, thanks guys

[Dwight Stearns]

I've been competing with Buckmarks since I started in rimfire challenge in 2010. My granddaughter is running my original frame with a Tacsol barrel and Tandemkross comp and trigger and Volquartsen hammer in open division. My wife and I shoot limited. Her's is a buckmark lite again with VQ hammer and straight trigger. Mine is a little more exotic. I took a 4" bull barrel, turned the forward 3"+- down to half inch and sleeved it with an aluminum sleeve making the barrel 6 1/2". It's lighter than the original 4" barrel but gives me the sight radius I like. Again VQ hammer and flat trigger. Trigger pull on all three guns is 1 3/4 at the middle of the trigger.

Now I started with the Buckmark because that's what I had and stuck with them because they work. I would probably have suck with Ruger if that's what I started with. Both work extremely well. I think the Buckmark is a little easier and cheaper to customize.

[drysideshooter]

I have had better luck with Volquartsen and have talked with Nick and Scott extensively.

We have some highly modified Rugers, and the Scorpion based guns are still our favorites. I shoot a complete scorpion with a C-more on it and my son shoots a Scorpion lower (VQ Target Frame) with a Tac-Sol Paclite upper on it. Between the two, I like the one with the Paclite upper the best and we're putting another one together right now.

We have tried most of the popular comps and are both currently shooting without comps. Most comps lead up pretty quickly and can be a bit of a bugger to keep clean. We are both extremely competitive and if you're making follow up shots often enough for the comp to matter on the follow up shot you're still learning and won't be very competitive anyway. In fact, if you haven't already transitioned to the next target when you realize you didn't hit the last one the majority of the time, you won't be competitive either. Obviously there are times when you break a shot and know it's a miss and you want to make as quick of follow up as possible. We are both as fast or faster without comps though.

I would suggest maybe adding an optic to your S&W and shooting it, and maybe add a good trigger group to your Lite and add an optic or put a Paclite upper on it.

[photoracer]

I agree, Buckmark is what I had to start with. In my first season of Ruger Rimfire I won a 22/45 at a Regional event. I proceeded to pour around $200 worth of VQ parts into it to try and make it shoot like my Buckmark and its 1.8# Heggis Flip trigger. By less than 2 months later I just did not like it. Sold it to one of my competition buddies as he wanted one for his wife. Found he liked my setup over his so put his race parts on the 22/45 and gave his wife his Ruger. Go figure. You never really know what you might like until you try different models. Now I happen to like the MK III over the 22/45. Also have a .22 conversion for my Dan Wesson 9mm 1911. Don't like that as much as the dedicated rimfires.