Rifle And Shotgun Handling

[wsimpso1]

I was at a three gun match and found myself with a confusing situation. I thought that I was following the rules. So how do you folks interpret 5.2 in both the rifle and shotgun rules?

I have read it, and thought that having a long gun with the bolt closed on a chamber flag and either having slung the gun or carrying the gun vertical (muzzle up or down) should more than satisfy any RO or other observer that the gun is both visibly empty and visibly not pointed at anyone.

Sunday, I was on deck while the stage was reset. I had carried my chamber flagged rifle out to the area for LAMR, with the muzzle vertically up, and when I got there, I placed the butt on my left foot while maintaining the muzzle vertically. After this I was threatened with DQ by the RO for "handling a weapon" with people downrange. It seems that he intended that rifles and shotguns would remain in the rack until he called for each shooter to retrieve and show for LAMR.

Then after the empty and show clear drill, I inserted the chamber flag and when I went to close the bolt on it to hold it in place, he insisted upon my leaving the bolt open, which means that the flag falls out, defeating its purpose. He did this for both rifle and shotgun, insisting that they remain locked open...

I shall not get into our banter, but I was attempting to find rhyme or reason behind his interpretation so that I can comply. Well meaning questions only seemed to antagonize him...

Did I screw this up and break the rules, or are some RO's still having a hard time adjusting to the new long gun rules?

Billski

[Matt Cheely]

I felt you did nothing wrong at the match. At the shooters meeting, it was asking if handling a flagged weapon was kosher or not at the range, which was relpied to in the affirmative.

I feel that the RO's did not grasp that a flagged weapon with the bolt closed is acceptable. I'm sure that if it was asked of the head RO at the match, that your bolt may be down on a chamber flag.

They seemed intent on keeping with both the USPSA rules and also the home range rules at the same time, which are in some conflict.

[cking]

Bolt closed on a chamber flag is the safest way. 3Gun suffers from inexperience.

When you go to strange club or are just starting, watch other guys are doing and then ask questions.

We have the RO's help by carry guns to help stage them, hold chamber flags for you till show clear time.

Because if it is a three gun stage, you got alot of stuff to bring to the line, We go to the forward most position first load and stage that gun and them back to next and so on. The Ro will assist by holding your shotgun while you stage the pistol. then will hold the safety flag until your done and then hand it to you during the clear.

The RO is supposed to help, we encourage RO coaching for beginners.

[davidwiz]

I said it before and I'll say it again, chamber flags are the wrong solution. As I related before, I was at a local 3-Gun match, and some $#@! idiot was handling his rifle, pointing it everywhich way, with people still downrange. When confronted, both he and the RO said that it was OK becuase the rifle had a chamber flag. I HATE having "unloaded" guns pointed at me.

[XRe]

Seems like a chamber flag should be ok as a surrogate "holstered gun" - in the context that Bill presented it in. I don't think that should give you carte blanche to handle the weapon away from a safe zone, though - and pointing it at someone is just damn rude, any way you slice it.

My extremely inexperienced (at 3-gun) opinion would be that the gun(s) should stay on the rack until such a time as you need to take them to the line, and then they should be transported to where they need to go, without a whole bunch of extra handling in between. If you need to work on it, or handle it, etc, treat it like the pistols - go to the safe area.

If I turned around and found someone pointing a gun at me, chamber flag or not, I'd be tempted to "make sure they never did that again". I get pissy about guys at the trap/skeet ranges walking around w/ broken open over/unders resting on their shoulder w/ the muzzle pointed backwards, regardless of whether or not its "safe". I'm definitely anal in this regard...

[GENE S]

At a local IPSC match this past wekend, there was a shotgun side match which I shot. While down range setting up new clays and steel, I heard the sound of a pump slide working. After a quick look around I noticed the next shooter walking throught the stage takeing a sight picture with his shotgun and working the slide at each. It took me little time to let him know that is not the thing to do.

I beleave that the long gun should be un-baged and set the rack, or left in the bag setting on the table or chair, but left alone. You need not cairy it about the stage waiting for your turn to shoot. Just as with the handgun. Hands off. If you have the chamber safty flags, put it in and leave it alone. The RO will let you know when it is a good time to pick up the gun. That is why he gets the big bucks.

Gene

[Nik Habicht]

In the handgun sports, I feel safest at a USPSA match following the rulebook. While I've been swept by a competitor shooting a stage during a spectacular DQ, I've had more "unloaded" guns pointed at me during other sports matches.

Oddly enough though, I feel safest around long gun matches, when the safety rules used by the Old Bridge Tactical Match are used. They have one rule for handling and carrying long guns during the match: Don't point a gun at yourself or anyone else, ever. It's surprisingly efficient.......

[Neil Beverley]

For IPSC and USPSA matches:

I feel that the RO's did not grasp that a flagged weapon with the bolt closed is acceptable.

The rule book is clear that this is perfectly acceptable.

Chamber flags must be fitted at all times, unless on the line under the supervision of an RO or in a Safety Area.

If I turned around and found someone pointing a gun at me, chamber flag or not,

If the gun is not bagged or cased it is a DQ.

No DQ if bagged or in a case.

[wsimpso1]

Some History on Chamber Flags and then a return to the topic.

I shot NRA High Power before chamber flags, and found our ranges to be quite safe. After all, you load and unload BOTH under line commands AND under the supervision of another shooter. And the rifles were M1's, M14's, and some derivative of the M98/M1903. All open topped rifles that could easily be seen to be empty and open. AR15's were rare. And the safety record was exemplary. 1873 was the start year for the game, and as it was explained to me during my introduction to the sport, "we have not shot anyone yet, we don't want to start today". Now, High Power is typically contested from firing lines on big ranges that have grass and little else. One line of shooters is on the Firing Line, the others wait at the Ready Line. Rifles are lying on shooting mats, shooting stools, and the ground. People pick up a rifle from the stool and set it on the mat or vice versa. It is impossible to walk about behind the Firing Line and not go in front of resting muzzles. And everyone becomes quite comfortable with it. Even the press do it.

I returned to High Power more recently. The AR15 is dominant, scoped rifles entered the game, and there are bolt guns that have small ejection ports. I initially thought the flags to be excessive. Then I realized that I was comfortable walking around a sea of shooting kits with rifles pointing out of them exactly because I used to be able to glance and see that each rifle was indeed empty. In the meanwhile, it became difficult to know that a rifle had been rendered safe unless a flag could be seen sticking out of a rifle.

So flags came about because they solved a problem for High Power. Does that make it applicable to USPSA?

We have a game that allows any of a huge variety of rifles and shotguns. We handle them en masse to go from car to range to range to car, and we have to know that they are safe. And we have to move them individually to the line and back. And we have to know that each particular gun is not fireable until the RO wants it to be. Now for the sticky part. Some of us advocate a method where we strictly operate with one layer of safety, and tolerate nothing less than perfect compliance. Others advocate having a couple layers so that when the inevitable human failure occurs, another layer will still prevent a terrible accident. Somehow the shooting sports have gone to the latter, and I am sure that some of us think a terrible mistake has been made, but that is the approach that the sport has taken - redundency AND vigilence. So, how do we maintain the level of safing that we are used to with pistols while we move around with our long guns? Beyond being safe, how do we maintain the impression of being safe too? Yes, this appears to be important too.

It is apparent that some of us are acutely uncomfortable with even seeing the muzzle end of the gun when someone else is touching it. Folks with that phobia will be uncomfortable indeed at a High Power match. Yet the practices on High Power ranges have been proven to be very safe by over 130 years of use. That bears some attention.

Now, as I read the IPSC and USPSA rule 5.2, we can slip the guns in a case, or we can sling it, carry or shoulder it, but make sure that the muzzle is either up or down and either the bolt is back or that it has a chamber flag inserted. So the simple rules are either case it or no sweeping others with the muzzle, no ammo, and display that the rifle is unable to fire. Is anyone of these rules enough by itself? Not in my book. Empty guns AND good gun handling make it safe. Once loaded, only good gun handling works, and we back that up with RO's in our sport just to make sure.

Now, use of the slip has always confused me. With a long gun in a slip or other case, we know NOTHING about the ammo state. The gun could be loaded, safety off, and prone to fire if dropped or bumped, but we know nothing about this. We trust that the gun is empty. And many of us blissfully ignore a wrapped up firearm... scary thought, eh?

By all means continue with the conversation. Thanks for the inputs...

Billski

[cking]

I'm very much in agreement about not happy about the case make its OK. I don't like open bolt either, the ar15 bolt can easily released for a variety of reasons. I've also seen a lot of stuck cases in AR's. So keeping with the belt and suspenders approach. Range Flags on closed bolts for me.

I also don't like muzzles point at me, and I don't like to people on line playing with guns. So what we follow is muzzle up or down when come to or leaving the line or going to the range table. Can't say we have racks at every stage. So guns end up in laying carts, tables with muzzles in various directions. What we asked for in safe flags visible on closed bolts and no mags in guns. Open bolt Auto Shotguns are ones that worry me the most hard to tell if there is round in the tube from glance and the speed gates make it easy to bump action closed,now we could have loaded shotgun with safety off laying around. Can't happen with chamber flag on closed bolt even if there are rounds in the tube.

[Flexmoney]

Good points. All.

The only thing that I can see that the cases/slips give us is that we know the gun has not been/can't be handled.

Of course, we don't know the conditionof the gun when it gets to the range (nor do we know that in pistol).

I think I would like to see the guns flagged and cased, under RO supervision, at a safe area before registration. Then, like a holster, the only time the gun comes out of the slip/case is unders orders from the Range Officer or at the safe area.

[Neil Beverley]

To clear up a couple of mis-understandings from the posts above -

Bolt closed - Safety Flag MUST be fitted

Bolt open - Safety Flag Must be fitted

Gun in a case or gun slip - Safety flag MUST be fitted

i.e. The safety flag MUST be fitted at all times the gun is not in use unless in a safety area. On the line it should only be removed under the supervision of the RO.

The reasons for adopting this policy is to establish a single routine. There has already been a post recognising that an open bolt doesn't indicate that the gun has an empty chamber.

Why must it be fitted while in a case? So that the gun is fitted with a (visible) safety flag by default as it is removed from the case and we don't want people fiddling around trying to fit one while the gun is still partly in the case prior to removal.

It is no big deal using one, they only take seconds to fit and the comfort factor is huge.

I would be comfortable on a range with me and a gun and no safety flag. I'd probably be comfortable with all of you with no safety flags. The trouble is we don't all know each other. How do you know I'm safe? And sooner or later Mr. Dick Head will visit the range and he's the guy that needs the safety flag.

As a personal preference I would prefer all guns, whether in a case or not, to be either up or down but not horizontal. However, we all have to make compromises.

[wsimpso1]

Hmmm, Neil Beverly's comment made me go back into the rules and look around.

5.2.1.1, 5.2.1.2, and 5.2.1.3 all indicate "that the action must remain open or be closed on a chamber flag". Using English the way I was taught it, this means that we can leave the bolt open (no chamber flag is indicated in this phrase), but if we close the bolt, it must be closed on a chamber flag (this phrase uses both chamber flag and closed bolt).

Then, along comes 5.2.1.4, which states that the chamber flag is required all of the time...

Hmm, so it seems that the open action clauses in 5.1.1.1-3 are in conflict with 5.2.1.4. We can not really have it both ways... I would respectfully submit that we should either omit 5.2.1.4 OR omit the open action clauses in 5.2.1.1-3.

As long as we are discussing the wording of these rules, I would respectfully submit that many of the chamber flag devices in existence block the action more or less open, and thus the bolt can not be "closed" upon them. Additionally, many manually operated rifles and shotguns will not remain closed when the muzzle is elevated to verticle. They otherwise perform the actions we want of them, making it obvious to the observer that the gun is incapable of firing. The wording could be changed to indicate that the chamber flag be applied with the action closed as much as is applicable.

Has there been a ruling to help us know exactly what we should be doing here?

Given the tiny amount of attention this has recieved compared to other rules issues, perhaps I am making a tempest in a teapot.

Billski

[XRe]

Given the tiny amount of attention this has recieved compared to other rules issues, perhaps I am making a tempest in a teapot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Way too late to wonder that About all you have to do is post a new topic for that.... :)